Received: from mail-bw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.214.61]:48409)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDxyJr2BBoEq-ULxw@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RRTDf-0001PD-NP; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:31:28 -0800
Received: by bkat2 with SMTP id t2sf3683786bka.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:31:16 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
         :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=WU/Me781IqyMzwUDSjDq8WxGmUxmS7/xBuqXWbCplYY=;
        b=XcKrKxZFZHZ0EUHIRQnqK3Sy4QFhSzrSkShTaKCYDkTg5iXaE15pArh2KVEYX2D73O
         DD2v7yucRMZpKsgbmf5ihMql8Be48on5xrZaKynte85J1ghfj2EwVLHh9QDC0wlrZ3B8
         IRej1Ze1umaLi9D/IZcinNkUSn4awuZ2ApoNA=
Received: by 10.204.154.78 with SMTP id n14mr646751bkw.31.1321641073555;
        Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:31:13 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.204.152.154 with SMTP id g26ls3524421bkw.3.gmail; Fri, 18 Nov
 2011 10:31:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.204.0.73 with SMTP id 9mr663319bka.4.1321641070859;
        Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:31:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.204.0.73 with SMTP id 9mr663318bka.4.1321641070832;
        Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:31:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-bw0-f47.google.com (mail-bw0-f47.google.com [209.85.214.47])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j1si258701bky.2.2011.11.18.10.31.10
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:31:10 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.47;
Received: by mail-bw0-f47.google.com with SMTP id zs2so3729113bkb.6
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:31:10 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.205.127.20 with SMTP id gy20mr4508444bkc.138.1321641070660;
 Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:31:10 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.204.41.67 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:31:10 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CAOYwWb363YBZ_WEXhTaoyuCG4ePwBEViHh7pVtVnR3YeqjjeJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1321501066.64722.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CAOYwWb10sDFZMfj8PDLJcs4=PNfKidsxFs6-7oJL2XKMycBSBA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO7tK2eVLOEVpdO9rWE+FF8RRpVud_KcXQWFBgde834FTQRQow@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOYwWb0qongWuyfY6CbA3T37ie+-ZLGy0C8oj5-L8X-7aPBD_A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO7tK2dq-fjM_p6+pRqWb98mT+GL6rq8iiqmpbWP8rAphBZt_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOYwWb0TtO0rQ15PKUgYRd1rAhC-kS6rErryD4E3q9-xsL35uQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO7tK2fis_iTSBPqqbyPRX28jukOcWDdvau5w6PMDa3otLROHA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOYwWb2ZFLsKEhPffjO=QSGsj1c9oYeb9=femhFpO=JOAeeywQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO7tK2droqa-EGbekEK=Z-t+3C2AF0OSXKi7+87Fm3DQn_VJxg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOYwWb3W=Fg08oPKgLPmwY7rvVdBfGY-RgWVVRQ0MXcF2k0brw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321633769.30584.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CAOYwWb22v6nNUCpC2eF6m90UQyCg_sUxQpo3A2xQmdgdrtiT0Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKOEKkTu-hcznZD2-8Pm8WkxAw=PzohNmRi-c1=nVQ=XE2kY9g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOYwWb363YBZ_WEXhTaoyuCG4ePwBEViHh7pVtVnR3YeqjjeJA@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:31:10 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkSiy7TwiR5y0Hm35LttbbQ8sHXhdXRUVDKMxiiK_nwNcg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Lions and levels and the like
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.47 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174479b8898f6004b2068aef
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

--0015174479b8898f6004b2068aef
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:12 PM, maikxlx <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:39 PM, maikxlx <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:29 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >> > JCB had at least one course in Logic but in a school that did not
> favor
> >> > modal
> >> > logic at all.  I don't know how well he did in even that one (Lojbab
> >> > does not
> >> > improve the logic input much).  But in 56 years, the efforts to get
> >> > necessity
> >> > operators in have come to naught -- though eventually we got something
> >> > like a
> >> > necessity predicate,
> >> >
> >> Is there a brivla for logical or modal necessity?
> >
> >
> >   Does nibli meet your requirements?
> >               --gejyspa
> >
> Thanks, but unfortunately I am pretty that this could not be made to
> work, at least not with anything close to reasonable succinctness,
> unless you know a way.  What we are trying to express is the
> sentence-scope adverb "necessarily(S)" which means "in all possible
> states of affairs, S" or more longwindedly "there is no possible state
> of affairs such that it is not true that S".  For example:
>
> (1) {lo remna ne'e mabru}
>  = Humans are necessarily mammals.
>  = In all possible states of affairs, humans are mammals.
>
> (2) {ro nanmu je se mensi ne'e bruna}
>  = All men with sisters are necessarily brothers.
>  = There is no possible state of affairs such that it is not true that
> all men with sisters are brothers.


   But you specifically asked for a brivla.  "ro da zo'u lo du'u da remna
cu nibli lo du'u da mabru [kei ro de]"  Ah, well, maybe that's just me.  As
usual, I just try to stay away from all the "nu katna lo kerfa kei pe'a"
and "me lu xo angeli cu ka'e dansu fi'o se cpana pa pijne veljai li'u
casnu" that are above my head.
             --gejyspa

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--0015174479b8898f6004b2068aef
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:12 PM, maikxlx <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maikxlx@gmail.com">maikxlx@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"im">On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michael Turniansky<br>&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:39 PM, maikxlx &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:maikxlx@gmail.com">maikxlx@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:29 AM, John E Clifford &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt=
;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; JCB had at least one course in Logic but in a=
 school that did not favor<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; modal<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; logic at all. =A0I don&#39;t know how =
well he did in even that one (Lojbab<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; does not<br>&gt;&gt; =
&gt; improve the logic input much). =A0But in 56 years, the efforts to get<=
br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; necessity<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; operators in have come to naught -=
- though eventually we got something<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; like a<br>&gt;&gt; &g=
t; necessity predicate,<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Is there a brivla for =
logical or modal necessity?<br>
&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; =A0 Does nibli meet your requirements?<br>&gt; =A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa<br>&gt;<br></div>Thanks, but un=
fortunately I am pretty that this could not be made to<br>work, at least no=
t with anything close to reasonable succinctness,<br>
unless you know a way. =A0What we are trying to express is the<br>sentence-=
scope adverb &quot;necessarily(S)&quot; which means &quot;in all possible<b=
r>states of affairs, S&quot; or more longwindedly &quot;there is no possibl=
e state<br>
of affairs such that it is not true that S&quot;. =A0For example:<br><br>(1=
) {lo remna ne&#39;e mabru}<br>=A0=3D Humans are necessarily mammals.<br>=
=A0=3D In all possible states of affairs, humans are mammals.<br><br>(2) {r=
o nanmu je se mensi ne&#39;e bruna}<br>
=A0=3D All men with sisters are necessarily brothers.<br>=A0=3D There is no=
 possible state of affairs such that it is not true that<br>all men with si=
sters are brothers.</blockquote>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>=A0=A0 But you specifically asked for a brivla.=A0 &quot;ro da zo&#39;=
u lo du&#39;u da remna cu nibli lo du&#39;u da mabru [kei ro de]&quot;=A0 A=
h, well, maybe that&#39;s just me.=A0 As usual, I just try to stay away fro=
m all the &quot;nu katna lo kerfa kei pe&#39;a&quot; and &quot;me lu xo ang=
eli cu ka&#39;e dansu fi&#39;o se cpana=A0pa pijne veljai li&#39;u casnu&qu=
ot; that are above my head.</div>

<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>=A0</div></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--0015174479b8898f6004b2068aef--