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Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 11:16:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [lojban] gender
From: tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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On 19 November 2011 04:04, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/18/2011 06:21 PM, tijlan wrote:
>> On 18 November 2011 22:14, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I'm actually talking about making {cinse} less general -- it already
>>>>> means gender; I just want to make it not also mean sexuality.
>>>>
>>>> How do you understand the term "sexuality" in the definition of
>>>> {cinse}? What is the sort of ka that you don't want the x2 to exhibit?
>>>
>>> I understand it to mean, and don't want it to mean, gledji.
>>
>> What would be an example bridi with {cinse} in that sense? And how
>> would that possibility be a trouble?
>
> jbovlaste gives "x1 is sexy" as a possible meaning, so {cinse} could
> actually qualify.
>
> It's a problem because if I want to unambiguously mean "sexuality" then
> I can say "gledji" but if I want to unambiguously mean "gender" then I
> have no good options.

But "gledji" and "gender" can already be separated into the x2 and x3.
For example:

  lo ninmu lo nu gledji lo fetsi po'o cu cinse lo ka [lesbian]
  The woman, in the state of sexually desiring females only, exhibits
the quality of lesbianism.

This allows the x3 to always mean "gender" (whatever characteristics
used to distinguish between sets of sexual entities in whatever
dimension -- genetic, phenotypic, social, cultural, linguistic, etc.).
So it seems we can use {cinse} to unambiguously mean "gender".


>>> Possible x4s might include gender of
>>> identification (sevzi), gender performance, sex/gender assigned at
>>> birth, anatomical sex, and chromosomal sex.
>>
>> According to the current definition, the x4 is the standard by which
>> the x3 is deduced from the x2. How would "gender performance" etc. be
>> such a reference frame? Sounds more like the x2, the event in which a
>> gender is exhibited.
>
> I think you're reading cinse4 differently than I am. As far as I can
> tell, the entirety of the actual definition is "by standard"; I had read
> that to mean something like "in dimension/attribute/respect".

"by standard" is also a keyword for "ma'i" of "manri". Eliminate
cinse4 and we could still express it through "ma'i":

  cinse lo nu prami gi'u gledji vau lo fetsi .e lo nakni kei lo ka
[bisexual] kei ma'i mi
  The state of loving females and males, whether or not wanting to
have sex with them, is bisexual, as far as I can tell.

  lo nanmu cu cinse fi lo ka [homosexual] kei ma'i lo certu .enai vo'a
  The man is gay according to the expert but not himself.

Consider also the difference between pluja2 ("in aspect") and pluja3
("by standard"). A standard in this sense is a rule by which x1 can be
determined to broda, not a dimension in which x1 brodas. In the case
of {cinse}, such a dimension is referred to by the x2.


mu'o

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