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[98.139.91.208]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id h2si11467503pba.0.2011.11.19.14.17.05; Sat, 19 Nov 2011 14:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.91.208 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.91.208; Received: from [98.139.91.68] by nm15.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Nov 2011 22:17:05 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.44] by tm8.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Nov 2011 22:17:05 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1044.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Nov 2011 22:17:05 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 407324.84232.bm@omp1044.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 83033 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2011 22:17:05 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: wWvAEaIVM1nCuWGE1wrmm9GqgGHnIsGFwQo5ItcvY3mg7ya tDr9qo5oHiuktyA7.1CfLUnF1NL8nlMekZ0b3reAzGdbC2wmNmgZKxu6Bjvi qYpsTVvZVjDCsEh9pfSwz1tDFVXGSDIuey1z2DRDhhS2Fw9c8aLISAelQk0K ql.kXVuzKfEWNOj3HLkNnaddN2sFnpKU_tC8g1VvxYXULtbzcW_1Ew2bSBOA qAMmChss7wzNwkPieegpPQnL9FXjpYWEGvq4vZ71xGFGv8Pmbed0_9IXChG2 .z7uBQCaGcKZPG4q7pZPPfg2Isy9W_YljSB0tApRew6.XdYolHJBiiRMffe6 BqgK1vlnZ8PGTdgO3gZpuZ8clt0gI3msiT1H9R0isowmweQBQ__S50fmeZ4y AJX3_.w68V_0tdPMcnyaEXYk9zQ9wBzZt5UW9_ewLoz8epS2MwGUlHioigSo mLtKvOYVCi06S30_NIce9W5KoJwT8Fkd8Yj_BDc0hAdVZegW2tofjH2K7rwo 0xChCbPg- X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp112-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2011 14:17:04 -0800 PST References: <32839884.2475.1321723578870.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqcm23> <1321737902.387.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_11729208_AHXHjkQAAGWSTsgmWQAR12swoO4 Subject: Re: [lojban] New logo; a work in progress Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:17:35 -0600 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.91.208 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--163526099 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --Apple-Mail-1--163526099 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Identity is in Logic, but it is part of the intrusion of mathematics, which= dominated the developments from mid 19th to mid 20th centuries. So it is = not particularly logic. Since 1965 or so the intrusions have come more fro= m Linguistics, but there is no good way to show that either, and it wouldn'= t be appropriate, sine what is in Lojban was already in place before then. Sent from my iPad On Nov 19, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Hmm. Just some rough thoughts. For representing "logic" the most basic/= fundamental concept is the law of identity pe'i. So what about something l= ike: > X=3DX > Or some such. Maybe some symbol other than "X" if a different symbol woul= d look better? >=20 > On Nov 19, 2011 4:25 PM, "John E Clifford" wrote: > E=3Dmc^2 has naught to do with Logic, of course, nor does the sequence of= prime numbers (well, a little), so that point got lost. The earliest Lojb= an logo used intersecting circles (from Venn diagrams) and a doubled headed= arrow (from one standard presentation of propositional calculus). But, of= course, those are known only to people who have some acquaintance (however= slight) to modern logic (since 1858 or so). Nothing universal springs to m= ind, since Logic, in this sense, at least, is an almost completely Euro-Ame= rican phenomenon. There is a markedly different tradition in India (which = might be symbolized with something picturing smoke on a mountain revealing = fire). The early (and quickly quelled) Chinese tradition doesn't lend itse= lf easily to depiction (how do you draw a white horse not being a horse -- = nor white?). The Islamic tradition transmitted and tidied up the Greek ver= sion to the West, which had received only a very dubious recension directly= . So, as I said, this is a Western tradition and maybe we just have to fac= e that an use Western logos -- not that I can think of one that really work= s for non-logicians. >=20 > From: M. Nael > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Sat, November 19, 2011 3:02:25 PM > Subject: Re: [lojban] New logo; a work in progress >=20 > As I said, it's a work in progress that needs opinions. So, here's the fi= rst question: > I symbolized logic using the 'E=3Dmc^2' equation and a short sequence of = prime numbers. But that doesn't seem to work. Like symbolizing language by = the shape of some talking people, how do you symbolize logic in a culturall= y neutral way? And how do you symbolize the offspring; the Lojban language = itself? > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --Apple-Mail-1--163526099 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Identity is in Logic, but it is part o= f the intrusion of mathematics, which dominated the developments from mid 1= 9th to mid 20th centuries.  So it is not particularly logic.  Sin= ce 1965 or so the intrusions have come more from Linguistics, but there is = no good way to show that either, and it wouldn't be appropriate, sine what = is in Lojban was already in place before then.

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 19, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

Hmm.  Just some rough though= ts.  For representing "logic" the most basic/fundamental concept is th= e law of identity pe'i.  So what about something like:
X=3DX
Or some such. Maybe some symbol other than "X" if a different symbol would = look better?

On Nov 19, 2011 4:25 PM, "John E Clifford" <<= a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com">kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
E=3Dmc^2 has naught to do with Logic, of course, nor does the sequ= ence of prime numbers (well, a little), so that point got lost.  The e= arliest Lojban logo used intersecting circles (from Venn diagrams) and a do= ubled headed arrow (from one standard presentation of propositional calculu= s).  But, of course, those are known only to people who have some acqu= aintance (however slight) to modern logic (since 1858 or so). Nothing unive= rsal springs to mind, since Logic, in this sense, at least, is an almost co= mpletely Euro-American phenomenon.  There is a markedly different trad= ition in India (which might be symbolized with something picturing smoke on= a mountain revealing fire).  The early (and quickly quelled) Chinese = tradition doesn't lend itself easily to depiction (how do you draw a white horse not being a horse -- nor white?).  The Islamic tradition = transmitted and tidied up the Greek version to the West, which had received= only a very dubious recension directly.  So, as I said, this is a Wes= tern tradition and maybe we just have to face that an use Western logos -- = not that I can think of one that really works for non-logicians.


From: M. Nael <= muhammad.nael@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 19, 2011 3:02:25 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] New lo= go; a work in progress

As I said, it's a work in progress that needs opinions. So= , here's the first question:
I symbolized logic using the 'E=3Dmc^2' equation and a short sequence = of prime numbers. But that doesn't seem to work. Like symbolizing language = by the shape of some talking people, how do you symbolize logic in a c= ulturally neutral way? And how do you symbolize the offspring; the Loj= ban language itself?

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<= span> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den= .

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den= .

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

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