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Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:30:22 -0500
From: Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Lions and levels and the like
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maikxlx wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 7:20 AM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
>>mi djuno ledu'u la nanla kau ka'e djuno makau
>>intending
>>I know where the boy is capable of swimming.
>>
> 
> I agree that this is a neat solution, and I also agree that it clashes
> with {kau}'s use in bridi abstractions.  Wouldn't it make the most
> sense to simply understand x1 as the relevant sumti? 

I think that is what people do as a default.  The question is whether it 
is allowed to use kau to mark a non-default intent, and how badly that 
might confuse matters in a worst case.

For actual usage, Jorge and Robin have much more authority, since I 
don't pretend that my all too rare usage is anymore standard (especially 
since xorlo).

In other words
> (1) {x1 ka'e [selbri] x2 x3 [...]} would be a transformation of:
> 
> (2) {x1 kakne lo nu ce'u [selbri] x2 x3 [...]}, and vice versa.

I avoid commenting on ce'u since I understand lambda calculus even less 
than xorlo.  I don't SEE anything wrong with this, but I doubt if I 
would even if it was wrong %^)

>>>What we want out of {ka'e} is only the latter, and if it
>>>
>>>can't guarantee that, then something else is needed IMHO.
>>
>>You are saying that we WANT a cumki rather than a kakne meaning for use in
>>the contrast between the various CAhAs?
>>
> 
> I do not necessarily* want to try to pry {ka'e} from {kakne} at this
> point.  It's a rather frequently used cmavo and I suspect "reforming"
> it would be futile, though xorxes thinks otherwise.  What I think
> Lojban unequivocally needs are two new modal operators with a grammar
> similar to CAhA but sensitive to scope.  Lojban also needs a brivla
> for modal necessity to complement {cumki}, which we probably already
> have as {zilsa'u} or possibly {ziln'i'i}, I don't care which.
> 
> *Notice the modal operator usage in natural language.

I note the usage.  What it means in logical terms is beyond my education.

>>TLI Loglan still exists with a very small rump community (some of whom are
>>also Lojbanists).  I am not sure WHY someone would use TLI Loglan instead of
>>Lojban, but they do.
> 
> I see no evidence of life over there.  My request to join their
> mailing list was never responded to.

You aren't missing much.  Traffic averages maybe 4 messages a month, 
with half or more being reminders of an apparently weekly chat session 
on Second Life, or comments from people saying that they won't be at 
some particular such session.

I thus suspect that the best way to talk to a TLI Loglanist is to get a 
Second Life account, and be in the relevant place and time on Saturdays 
(not really knowing how Second Life works).

Or just send email to xorxes (who probably uses the language better than 
JCB did), or possibly Lojbanist/Loglanist Cyril Slobin %^)

lojbab

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