Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]:40929) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RSvzi-000195-Ds; Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:27:08 -0800 Received: by vcbfk1 with SMTP id fk1sf1260938vcb.16 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:26:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:reply-to:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=I8n8By0h0V/Z91zO2qMIQivcivcrDr5gjVibCO23lJo=; b=IL+HhotP03EGo2NJrmdIrK5jaGenrh9CCDld3upetr7d/F+qRnCUhO2+vjImMFVXjC 6qYb+u5XCF9IEbtfF+NXXvIhv5Z7hL+vaf/hkidBc+bvkjQ6tWVVTUSn7jFe9djNMqw/ WFtEpJZBH0/7VtT8bS+JLWxcep14To3oH1gNY= Received: by 10.52.64.147 with SMTP id o19mr3195276vds.16.1321990013614; Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:26:53 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.108.71 with SMTP id e7ls15309491vcp.3.canary; Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.90.36 with SMTP id bt4mr25853588vdb.7.1321990012574; Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.90.36 with SMTP id bt4mr25853585vdb.7.1321990012558; Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com (mail-vx0-f189.google.com [209.85.220.189]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bu17si7066413vdc.0.2011.11.22.11.26.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jandew@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.189 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.189; Received: by vcbfk1 with SMTP id fk1so1322250vcb.26 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.94.13 with SMTP id cy13mr10662415vdb.1.1321990012486; Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:26:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:26:51 -0800 (PST) From: djandus Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-ID: <32855204.975.1321990011505.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhd1> In-Reply-To: <20b482a7-b58a-4e4a-a3f7-27b49ba861c0@p9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> References: <20b482a7-b58a-4e4a-a3f7-27b49ba861c0@p9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: New PA-proposal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: jandew@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jandew@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.189 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jandew@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_974_2196059.1321990011503" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_974_2196059.1321990011503 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, klaku and I have hammered out a lot of changes, and have a few big=20 things. Here's the document linkagain, for convenience. Note tha= t I added the capability for you all to=20 post comments on the document. Please use it! It works a lot better than=20 typing in the mailing list "Now when you said..." First of all, if anyone is confused on the purpose of the hierarchy, please= =20 speak up. Some general points: - We have changed the selma'o notation from denoting gumselma'o to=20 denoting pagselma'o. For clarity, this uses an underscore rather than a= =20 caret. This both makes the notation more consistent when it changes as w= ell=20 as makes sure that PA always refers to the same words it does now. - Additionally, for clarity, I've suggested a set of lujvo to describe= =20 the gumselma'o. Tell me if any of them suck or break any rules. - The hierarchy is now relatively hammered out. It now looks like this: PA: - PA_ - PA__: (no, pa, re, ci, vo, mu, xa, ze, bi, so, dau, fei, gai, jau,= =20 rei/xei, vai), xo - DUhE: du'e, mo'a, rau, ro, so'a, so'e, so'i, so'o, so'u, no'o [xo'e= ] - PAI: pai, te'o, tu'o - PIhE - PI: pi, ki'o, ra'e, ji'i - FIhU: fi'u, ka'o - PIhE_: pi'e - CEhI: ce'i, ma'u, me'i, ni'u. za'u, da'a, su'e, su'o, ci=92i One of the funniest things about this is that CEhI is the name of the=20 preceding modifier gumselma'o when it's the least certain one to be in that= =20 class. Dealing with that first, I think that whatever we do, we should not= =20 define {ce'i} as it is officially -- that is, that {pa no pi re ce'i} is=20 "10.2%". The *only* reason to make "percent" a succeeding modifier (for=20 which we would need a new pagselma'o) is cultural: we're used to saying=20 "ten percent". This is a terrible reason when PA could have so much order= =20 with just three pagselma'o. However, I do have a suggestion if people do=20 not like ce'i as a preceding modifier. We can make it an internal modifier= =20 that serves the same function as {pi}, except that it asserts the {pi}=20 position to be two digits to the left. In this way, {pa no ce'i} would=20 still be "10%", but "10.2%" would instead be expressed as {pa no ce'i re}.= =20 Note that this version saves a syllable, since {ce'i} would take the place= =20 of {pi}. In the event of this conversion I suggest CEhI be renamed to DAhA,= =20 since it and {ci'i} are the only words in the class that don't come in=20 symmetric pairs. Another important discussion point addresses the parsing of PA__ strings.= =20 (e.g. {pa no pi re}, i.e. strings composed only of PA__ and PI} Rather than= =20 apply a bunch of restrictions to where PI valsi are allowed, (e.g. "{pi}=20 can only be used once in a PA__ string") we say that each PI has to assert= =20 a new {pi} position, be it taken from the left string, the right string, or= =20 it's own (as in {pi} itself). This is illustrated in the second of three=20 examples at the end of the Google Doc. (On a tangent, how is "second of=20 three examples" supposed to be expressed in Lojban? The simplest thing I=20 can come up with is {lo remoi be lo cimei ku mupli}) The only question left= =20 regarding how to parse PA__ strings then becomes whether to use=20 left-grouping or right-grouping to evaluate PI. Right now, everything is as= =20 if we use left-grouping. (so that the rightmost {pi} or {ra'e} always=20 "wins") However, I've discovered that this can make parsing something like= =20 {pa ji'i re pi no xa} awkward, as left-grouping dictates { pi }, which comes out to saying only the digit {re} is=20 uncertain. We can either arbitrarily define some confusing order of=20 operations, or simply use right-grouping. As klaku pointed out=20 way-long-time-ago, PA__ are already semantically interpreted with=20 right-grouping, so it wouldn't be too farfetched to apply PI to PA__ with= =20 right-grouping. It would, in fact, make a lot of sense. Note that this=20 wouldn't change how the other PIhE or CEhI are evaluated -- they would=20 still parse the same way, left-to-right, without any explicit grouping=20 needed, just waiting for PA to be parsed for input. If I missed any of the big changes or issues, I'm sure you all will find=20 them. mu'o mi'e djos --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/AaE9dZl_GAsJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_974_2196059.1321990011503 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, klaku and I have hammered out a lot of changes, and have a few big th= ings. Here's the document link again, for conveni= ence. Note that I added the capability for you all to post comments on the = document. Please use it! It works a lot better than typing in the mailing l= ist "Now when you said..."

First of all, if anyone is co= nfused on the purpose of the hierarchy, please speak up.

Some general points:
  • We have changed the selma'o notation fr= om denoting gumselma'o to denoting pagselma'o. For clarity, this uses an un= derscore rather than a caret. This both makes the notation more consistent = when it changes as well as makes sure that PA always refers to the same wor= ds it does now.
  • Additionally, for clarity, I've suggested a set = of lujvo to describe the gumselma'o. Tell me if any of them suck or break a= ny rules.
  • The hierarchy is now relatively hammered out. It now looks li= ke this:
PA:
  • PA_
    • PA__: (no, pa, re, ci, vo= , mu, xa, ze, bi, so, dau, fei, gai, jau, rei/xei, vai), xo
    • = DUhE: = ;du= 'e, mo'a, rau, ro, so'a, so'e, so'i, so'o, so'u, no'o [xo'e]
    • PAI: pai, = te'o, tu'o
  • PIhE
    • PI: pi, ki'o, ra'e, ji'i
    • FIhU: fi'u, k= a'o
    • PIhE_: pi'e
  • CEhI: ce'i, ma'u, me'i, ni'u. za'u, da'a, su= 'e, su'o, ci=92i
One of the funniest things about this is t= hat CEhI is the name of the preceding modifier gumselma'o when it's the lea= st certain one to be in that class. Dealing with that first, I think that w= hatever we do, we should not define {ce'i} as it is officially -- that is, = that {pa no pi re ce'i} is "10.2%". The only reason to make "pe= rcent" a succeeding modifier (for which we would need a new pagselma'o) is = cultural: we're used to saying "ten percent". This is a terrible reason whe= n PA could have so much order with just three pagselma'o. However, I do hav= e a suggestion if people do not like ce'i as a preceding modifier. We can m= ake it an internal modifier that serves the same function as {pi}, except t= hat it asserts the {pi} position to be two digits to the left. In this way,= {pa no ce'i} would still be "10%", but "10.2%" would instead be expressed = as {pa no ce'i re}. Note that this version saves a syllable, since {ce'i} w= ould take the place of {pi}. In the event of this conversion I suggest CEhI= be renamed to DAhA, since it and {ci'i} are the only words in the class th= at don't come in symmetric pairs.

Another importan= t discussion point addresses the parsing of PA__ strings. (e.g. {pa no pi r= e}, i.e. strings composed only of PA__ and PI} Rather than apply a bunch of= restrictions to where PI valsi are allowed, (e.g. "{pi} can only be used o= nce in a PA__ string") we say that each PI has to assert a new {pi} positio= n, be it taken from the left string, the right string, or it's own (as in {= pi} itself). This is illustrated in the second of three examples at the end= of the Google Doc. (On a tangent, how is "second of three examples" suppos= ed to be expressed in Lojban? The simplest thing I can come up with is {lo = remoi be lo cimei ku mupli}) The only question left regarding how to parse = PA__ strings then becomes whether to use left-grouping or right-grouping to= evaluate PI. Right now, everything is as if we use left-grouping. (so that= the rightmost {pi} or {ra'e} always "wins") However, I've discovered that = this can make parsing something like {pa ji'i re pi no xa} awkward, as left= -grouping dictates {<pa [pi] ji'i re [pi]> pi <no xa [pi]>}, wh= ich comes out to saying only the digit {re} is uncertain. We can either arb= itrarily define some confusing order of operations, or simply use right-gro= uping. As klaku pointed out way-long-time-ago, PA__ are already semanticall= y interpreted with right-grouping, so it wouldn't be too farfetched to appl= y PI to PA__ with right-grouping. It would, in fact, make a lot of sense. N= ote that this wouldn't change how the other PIhE or CEhI are evaluated -- t= hey would still parse the same way, left-to-right, without any explicit gro= uping needed, just waiting for PA to be parsed for input.

If I missed any of the big changes or issues, I'm sure you all will= find them.
mu'o mi'e djos

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