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Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 17:58:14 -0500
From: "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" <lojbab@lojban.org>
Organization: The Logical Language Group, Inc.
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Lions and levels and the like
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maikxlx wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 7:20 AM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
  >>>What we want out of {ka'e} is only the latter, and if it
>>>
>>>can't guarantee that, then something else is needed IMHO.
>>
>>You are saying that we WANT a cumki rather than a kakne meaning for use in
>>the contrast between the various CAhAs?
>>
> 
> I do not necessarily* want to try to pry {ka'e} from {kakne} at this
> point.  It's a rather frequently used cmavo and I suspect "reforming"
> it would be futile, though xorxes thinks otherwise.  What I think
> Lojban unequivocally needs are two new modal operators with a grammar
> similar to CAhA but sensitive to scope.  Lojban also needs a brivla
> for modal necessity to complement {cumki}, which we probably already
> have as {zilsa'u} or possibly {ziln'i'i}, I don't care which.
> 
> *Notice the modal operator usage in natural language.

I didn't comment at the time, needing to think about it some more, but I 
am sure that this use of "not necessarily" is covered by some form of 
the four or five causal cmavo in BAI, and the choice probably depends on 
exactly what you mean by "not necessarily", since it isn't necessarily 
(zo'o) a *logical* non-necessity.

The five in question are
ki'u
ni'i
mu'i
ri'a,
and ja'e (which does not act in parallel to the others - it was not part 
of the original set, but we realized later that it somewhat overlapped 
the others).

"necessarily" seems like a "therefore", which is the "se" form of the 
first four and the unmodified ja'e.  "Not necessarily" would then seem 
to be a kind of negation of the therefore statement - not the nai form 
which has been defined from the JCB era as "nevertheless", but 
presumably the na form.

Whatever word you choose, it has to be used carefully.  If you attach 
the modal to the sumti "mi", you get
"I do not necessarily want to try to pry ka'e from kakne at this point 
(but someone else might want to)."
Attached to the "at this point" would suggest that you might want to try 
to do so at some other point, etc.
Both are plausible readings of what you said, but I can see a couple 
more plausible readings as well (but I'd have to translate the rest of 
the sentence in order to figure how to say it, and I'm lazy, and I'm not 
sure that it is necessary to my point).


-- 
Bob LeChevalier    lojbab@lojban.org    www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.

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