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Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 20:37:50 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Lions and levels and the like
From: maikxlx <maikxlx@gmail.com>
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On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 5:58 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and
Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
> maikxlx wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 7:20 AM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>
>> wrote:
>
> =A0>>>What we want out of {ka'e} is only the latter, and if it
>>>>
>>>> can't guarantee that, then something else is needed IMHO.
>>>
>>> You are saying that we WANT a cumki rather than a kakne meaning for use
>>> in
>>> the contrast between the various CAhAs?
>>>
>>
>> I do not necessarily* want to try to pry {ka'e} from {kakne} at this
>> point. =A0It's a rather frequently used cmavo and I suspect "reforming"
>> it would be futile, though xorxes thinks otherwise. =A0What I think
>> Lojban unequivocally needs are two new modal operators with a grammar
>> similar to CAhA but sensitive to scope. =A0Lojban also needs a brivla
>> for modal necessity to complement {cumki}, which we probably already
>> have as {zilsa'u} or possibly {ziln'i'i}, I don't care which.
>>
>> *Notice the modal operator usage in natural language.
>
> I didn't comment at the time, needing to think about it some more, but I =
am
> sure that this use of "not necessarily" is covered by some form of the fo=
ur
> or five causal cmavo in BAI, and the choice probably depends on exactly w=
hat
> you mean by "not necessarily", since it isn't necessarily (zo'o) a *logic=
al*
> non-necessity.
>
> The five in question are
> ki'u
> ni'i
> mu'i
> ri'a,
> and ja'e (which does not act in parallel to the others - it was not part =
of
> the original set, but we realized later that it somewhat overlapped the
> others).
>
Let's simplify "I want to try to pry {ka'e} from {kakne} at this
point" and translate it as {mi la'e de'u djica}. We want to say

(0) Not necessarily: mi la'e de'u djica

We can try

(1) na ku ni'i ku mi la'e de'u djica

How would you translate that?  To me it seems to mean "not logically
because of something, I want it."  In other words I do in fact want
it, but me wanting it does not logically follow from some unspecified
thing.  Moving the {na ku} doesn't seem to help:

(2) ni'i ku mi la'e de'u na ku djica

What's that to you?  To me it's "logically (because of something), I
don't want it" which means I actually don't want it.


> "necessarily" seems like a "therefore", which is the "se" form of the fir=
st
> four and the unmodified ja'e. =A0"Not necessarily" would then seem to be =
a
> kind of negation of the therefore statement - not the nai form which has
> been defined from the JCB era as "nevertheless", but presumably the na fo=
rm.
>
If you can approximate sentence (0) in Lojban using any of BAI and SE
and {na ku}, please show me.  From what I can see, you can't get modal
readings from BAI.


> Whatever word you choose, it has to be used carefully. =A0If you attach t=
he
> modal to the sumti "mi", you get
> "I do not necessarily want to try to pry ka'e from kakne at this point (b=
ut
> someone else might want to)."

Because I do not see how the basic meaning "I do not necessarily want
it" can be gotten, I see even less how the inherence "but someone else
might want it" can be gotten.  If modals and sumti interact in some
way other than by relative scope, I would definitely like to
understand how, though, preferably by Lojban examples, if anyone could
give some.


> Attached to the "at this point" would suggest that you might want to try =
to
> do so at some other point, etc.

Right, if for example, if xorxes convinces me that there is no other
way around the issue.  Which he may do.


> Both are plausible readings of what you said, but I can see a couple more
> plausible readings as well (but I'd have to translate the rest of the
> sentence in order to figure how to say it, and I'm lazy, and I'm not sure
> that it is necessary to my point).
>
It's not; in fact it's best to use simple examples.


> Bob LeChevalier =A0 =A0lojbab@lojban.org =A0 =A0www.lojban.org
> President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
>
mu'o mi'e .maik.

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