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Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 09:32:52 -0800 (PST)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] semantic parser - tersmu-0.1rc1
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I can't (with a straight face) claim to have followed this discussion, but =
I=20
offer this tidbit about relative clauses.  A restrictive relative clause=20
attaches to a description *and are part of that description*.  That is, for=
=20
Lojban, {lo broda (ku?) poi brode} is just {lo broda Ce brode} ( I can neve=
r=20
keep all the various versions of the logical connectives straight, nor be s=
ure=20
what is meant to be connected here, predicates or bridi tails or something =
else=20
altogether).  Consequently, it is unaffected by various operators within wh=
ose=20
scope it lies, just like the predicate inside the official description.  Th=
is=20
latter is true also of non-restrictive relative clauses, but they are simpl=
y=20
separate sentences: {lo proda noi brode cu brodi} is {lo broda cu brodi .ij=
e lo=20
broda cu brode}.  I am not sure about {voi}, but whichever, it is independe=
nt of=20
the operators within whose scope it lies.



----- Original Message ----
From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 26, 2011 9:41:14 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] semantic parser - tersmu-0.1rc1

* Saturday, 2011-11-26 at 11:02 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.=
com>:

> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
> >
> > {noi broda} is veridicial - it affects the truth conditions of the
> > claim, so it can't be scope-invariant.
> >
> > {voi broda} is non-veridicial - it doesn't affect the truth conditions,
> > so is scope-invariant. It just gives hints to help the listener
> > understand the intended referents of the sumti it's attached to, by
> > noting that they satisfy broda (or appear to satisfy broda, this being
> > all that's relevant).
>=20
> The veridicality of "noi" means that the subordinate clause is a
> veridical claim about its subject, it has nothing to do with how it
> affects (or rather doesn't affect) the truth of the main clause. The
> non-restrictiveness of "noi" is what makes it independent of the main
> clause.

Hmm. I wonder if I now finally understand part of xorlo: would you say
that {lo broda} is equivalent, under this side-clause interpretation of
{noi} you've just set out, to {le broda noi broda}?

I never understood how it could be veridical, and spelt {lo} rather than
{le}, and yet be invariant under negation scope. This would explain it.

> I can't comment on "voi" since we don't really know whether it's
> supposed to be restrictive or non-restrictive. It could very well be
> both non-veridical and restrictive: "the woman that I described as a
> man" vs "the woman, who I described as a man". I'm not sure which one
> of those "lo ninmu voi nanmu" is supposed to be.

I don't know about {lo}, but presumably {le broda ku voi brode} is
equivalent to {le broda je brode}.

To me that suggests that {ko'a voi broda} be not exactly restrictive,
but rather something like "disambiguatingly incidental". It describes
ko'a as satisfying broda, with the intention that this makes clearer the
intended referents of {ko'a}. So {ro da voi nanmu cu broda} is highly
unhelpful, as it describes everything as being a man, but isn't actually
false unless something doesn't broda.

This looks like a useful role for it, whether or not it was the
originally intended one, no?

Martin

--=20
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