Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]:59350)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCOTEtqyUDhCgx9v2BBoEU04tgQ@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RVwD3-0004qJ-Ft; Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:17:21 -0800
Received: by dadi14 with SMTP id i14sf140062dad.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:17:07 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references
         :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key
         :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe;
        bh=QPTJeuA6EEP8LIWOoGPwtHUlwqPenj0+mW+Gf0cHDNM=;
        b=11PP1q03ADfeM8Z2nPSMegBF9CWQzc+oP4VSc8FF3AhfXCr5FFxYGNV4Xe5mlc6fmk
         9AqxVPwO4MnCfO5o3ZFa10BXAcd7qow/ep7Ax4gV5n4jGc/bFSOTTqc5scdN11rXKkna
         T67+sGdoXXqVGeFtn3OGUW9XPE+rKER0IOvgk=
Received: by 10.68.32.138 with SMTP id j10mr10326pbi.17.1322705824721;
        Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:17:04 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.68.26.8 with SMTP id h8ls9264614pbg.1.gmail; Wed, 30 Nov 2011
 18:17:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.68.209.68 with SMTP id mk4mr334106pbc.6.1322705823985;
        Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:17:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.68.209.68 with SMTP id mk4mr334105pbc.6.1322705823976;
        Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:17:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org. [192.94.73.19])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x5si5466416pbb.1.2011.11.30.18.17.03
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:17:03 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19;
Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4])
	by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.5/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pB12H3VA026005
	for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Thu, 1 Dec 2011 02:17:03 GMT
Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75)
	(envelope-from <mbays@sdf.org>)
	id 1RVwCt-0008Te-59
	for lojban@googlegroups.com; Wed, 30 Nov 2011 21:17:03 -0500
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 21:17:03 -0500
From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] semantic parser - tersmu-0.1rc1
Message-ID: <20111201021703.GL2886@gonzales>
References: <CAO7tK2eVfy5iEv4Qy5HWhhVu+ATV3nzUJS=yqKR-tR3Tp6vG6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111126154114.GC27177@gonzales>
 <CAO7tK2d9HQKweQJ_RE67GS-+hr=tEL_bzsZgEUfdCavxyOpLXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111126182915.GC15113@gonzales>
 <CAO7tK2fSavtz6QA1dJB0Nh7ZWC9_ucLMWdkC4Kzk2aQK9xpVrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111126214806.GB19833@gonzales>
 <CAO7tK2cu1S5eGm9F21kDd6rN548CXdPqeTwEU5X4tD=OjctEfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111129030444.GA26300@gonzales>
 <CAO7tK2f3vj9sesm1XEOm4KArdxuKgAT84Whpn-D4HiaTFQXPWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111129225808.GA19818@gonzales>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1;
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="m0XfRaZG5aslkcJX"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <20111129225808.GA19818@gonzales>
X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc
X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6
X-cunselcu'a-valsi: vlagi
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as
 permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /


--m0XfRaZG5aslkcJX
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

* Tuesday, 2011-11-29 at 17:58 -0500 - Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>:

> * Tuesday, 2011-11-29 at 18:37 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail=
=2Ecom>:
>=20
> > On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 12:04 AM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > And do you similarly really want {ko'a .e ko'e lo broda cu brode} to =
not
> > > be equivalent to {ge ko'a lo broda cu brode gi ko'e lo broda cu brode=
},
> >=20
> > I want it equivalent to "ge ko'a ko'i goi lo broda cu brode gi ko'e ko'=
i brode".
> >=20
> > The shared elements in bridi joined by ".e" or "gi'e" are not words
> > but their meanings.
> >=20
> > > in that the value of {lo broda} can be different in the two occurances
> > > in the latter but must be constant in the former?
> > >
> > > That complicates things significantly, you know.
> >=20
> > No more than for "ta" or for "la djan" or most sumti for which you
> > can't absolutely guarantee that they will end up with the same
> > referent(s) every time they are used.
>=20
> Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.

Actually, there's an issue here, and I'm not sure how to resolve it.

I think we agreed that
(i) if {lo broda be da} occurs not in the scope of a quantification of
    {da}, the resulting existential quantifier has scope only within the
    lo-phrase - i.e., referents are claimed to satisfy
    EX x. broda(_,x) .

Meanwhile,
(ii) if {da} is already quantified, then {lo broda be da} is interpreted
    as a skolem function.

But then how to handle
{ge broda da gi brode vau lo brodi be da} ?


The same problem occurs with {da .e ko'a lo broda be da}, if my
understanding of the interaction between sumti connectives and
quantifiers is correct.


I'm not seeing any solutions other than either (a) choosing one of (i)
and (ii), and declaring the other disallowed; (b) just accepting this as
an ugly exception to the wide "scope" of description sumti.

I don't like either of these.

Any better ideas?

Martin

--m0XfRaZG5aslkcJX
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAk7W454ACgkQULC7OLX7LNZGLwCgqCRbwP0BMSj6P3/HLuen17m0
mjkAn2TQPVEwfeGbmsiZoCKWz22UZ27+
=1F0/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--m0XfRaZG5aslkcJX--