Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]:34927)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCOTEtqyUDhCP_-D2BBoEVHCrNg@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RWJNg-0002VS-0i; Thu, 01 Dec 2011 19:01:52 -0800
Received: by dajx4 with SMTP id x4sf976301daj.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 01 Dec 2011 19:01:37 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references
         :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key
         :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe;
        bh=TuGjk89lBAry72tcZ1vzDl1ythTRqrtJ/qdPYXzLv88=;
        b=Qe/lOJZyPDH3G0GKcZDSwxQaBspeRZ3FtmIDTM4ad8kexzosnyHIMcBM2+No/KZrjF
         GEXTZSHBmA3z6xAES9Dc1tjZOHLVmEHUQ3tzeimkqWLAGEXGyKC2eC/HmTNQcebNjjVM
         DOACu/05ZUiTJjZwH5SNvHUyTnfPJ0pUROT3E=
Received: by 10.68.38.166 with SMTP id h6mr816467pbk.14.1322794895111;
        Thu, 01 Dec 2011 19:01:35 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.68.121.5 with SMTP id lg5ls13597661pbb.5.gmail; Thu, 01 Dec
 2011 19:01:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.68.31.165 with SMTP id b5mr2394512pbi.1.1322794894425;
        Thu, 01 Dec 2011 19:01:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.68.31.165 with SMTP id b5mr2394511pbi.1.1322794894415;
        Thu, 01 Dec 2011 19:01:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org. [192.94.73.19])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u7si9907257pbn.2.2011.12.01.19.01.34
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Thu, 01 Dec 2011 19:01:34 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19;
Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4])
	by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.5/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pB231Xnl005598
	for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Fri, 2 Dec 2011 03:01:34 GMT
Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75)
	(envelope-from <mbays@sdf.org>)
	id 1RWJNV-00039b-DF
	for lojban@googlegroups.com; Thu, 01 Dec 2011 22:01:33 -0500
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 22:01:33 -0500
From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Rant (baby related): dasni, taxfu, and all their friends.
Message-ID: <20111202030133.GA4040@gonzales>
References: <20111130195612.GF2886@gonzales>
 <20111201041638.GZ8581@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <20111201153201.GN2886@gonzales>
 <20111201160359.GE22210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <20111201165455.GO2886@gonzales>
 <20111201170007.GI22210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <20111201171425.GP2886@gonzales>
 <20111201171640.GJ22210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <20111201180603.GA12482@gonzales>
 <20111202013004.GB5332@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1;
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <20111202013004.GB5332@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc
X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6
X-cunselcu'a-valsi: bandu
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as
 permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /


--nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

* Thursday, 2011-12-01 at 17:30 -0800 - Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalk=
ingdom.org>:

> On Thu, Dec 01, 2011 at 01:06:03PM -0500, Martin Bays wrote:
> > * Thursday, 2011-12-01 at 09:16 -0800 - Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digi=
talkingdom.org>:
> >=20
> > > On Thu, Dec 01, 2011 at 12:14:25PM -0500, Martin Bays wrote:
> > > > * Thursday, 2011-12-01 at 09:00 -0800 - Robin Lee Powell
> > > > <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>:
> > > > > On Thu, Dec 01, 2011 at 11:54:55AM -0500, Martin Bays wrote:
> > > > > > * Thursday, 2011-12-01 a.t 08:03 -0800 - Robin Lee Powell
> > > > > > <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>:
> > > > > > > If it was up to me, I'd define certain places as being
> > > > > > > ka'e-able: that is, "this place is normally filled by X
> > > > > > > [where in the case of botpi X would be "what the bottle
> > > > > > > currently contains"], but even if there is no current or
> > > > > > > obvious X, the capability is sufficient for the semantics of
> > > > > > > this word; zi'o should only be used if the capability has
> > > > > > > been lost".
> > > > >=20
> > > > > As currently defined, a kabri is only a kabri if it contains
> > > > > something; "contains vacuum" or "contains air" are both dodging
> > > > > the question, IMO, especially the former.  So I think we should
> > > > > canonicalize the whole "this place doesn't have to be
> > > > > interesting" thing you just said.
> > > >=20
> > > > But if we go from "doesn't have to be interesting" to "doesn't
> > > > have to (ca'a) exist", then the place structure does much less to
> > > > define the meaning.
> > > >=20
> > > > e.g. we wouldn't have the clear difference between {ko'a zukte
> > > > ko'e} and {ko'a gasnu ko'e} - we'd be left with just some fuzzy
> > > > idea that in the former, there *could* have been a purpose behind
> > > > the action - which if we stretch that 'could' far enough, is true
> > > > of any nu gasnu.
> > >=20
> > > My point was that *particular places* of *particular gismu* would be
> > > marked with this behaviour.
> >=20
> > OK. I stand by my 'yuck', though!
>=20
> The other thought I had is making all such places definite, i.e. a
> kabri actually is really containing the x2 by default, and marking
> exceptions with {da'i} and friends; {kabri lo da'i djacu} is "this
> cup could hold water", and {kabri lo da'i .i'e djacu} is "this is a
> cup for/that should hold water".
>=20
> Better?

Giving a special meaning to an actual cup actually kabri-ing
a hypothetical quantity of water? That makes me even queasier than
did the ambiguity in the first approach, to be honest...

I'd go with {ti ka'e kabri da poi djacu}, and kabri implying vasru.

Martin

--nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAk7YP40ACgkQULC7OLX7LNZ9jACgvbWNwuAgenzESBXoeBPv6HVW
5boAn1DvVwwrXXYsR805yvhRJf7jMJ70
=mMh5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j--