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And, of course, following English, we might have cases where one of the the=
 occurrences is verso and the whole, covering all occurrences, is prenex un=
iversal.  Again, starting from the FOPL form and looking for reasonable rul=
es helps.  I favor the "covers all the instances" approach -- even across b=
ridi boundaries.

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 4, 2011, at 7:13 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 10:49 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> Is unnegated {ro'oi} ever useful?
>=20
> I think of it as "any number of":
>=20
> ro'oi prenu ka'e kelci
> "Any number of people can play."
>=20
>=20
>> All I can say is that the rule I have in mind
>> (and code) - always export to the closest prenex - seems coherent and
>> simple, and as far as I can tell is in full accordance with the
>> baseline.
>=20
> I'm pretty sure the intention was that implicit quantifiers on "da"
> were mere elisions, so "ge ko'a gi da da broda" would have to be
> either "(su'o da zo'u) ge ko'a gi da da broda" or "ge ko'a gi (su'o)
> da (su'o) da broda". It couldn't be something that needs an expansion
> before being made explicit.
>=20
>> If we're to let scope jump out of geks, why not also out of NOI-clauses
>> or NU-clauses?
>=20
> I don't think anything should be jumping out of anywhere, it's just a
> matter of where the elided quantifier is in the first place.
>=20
> There are two separate issues to consider: (1) Where is the binding
> quantifier when an expression contains apparently unbound variables?
> (2) What is the scope of an explicit quantifier which is not presented
> in prenex form?
>=20
> I don't think there's more than one reasonable answer to (2). Saying
> that "no da blabi .i je no de xekri" means something different from
> "ge no da zo'u da blabi gi no de zo'u de xekri" seems just
> unreasonable. No quote from CLL can make it reasonable. The fact that
> you need to use tu'e-tu'u if you want to move "no da" to a prenex
> while maintaining the non-prenex ijek connective form is just
> incidental.
>=20
> Question (1) may admit more than one reasonable answer. The simplest
> answer seems to be that the elided "su'o" is right in front of the
> first instance of the apparently unbound variable, with scope as in
> (2), and any instance outside that scope will require new binding.
> Another perhaps reasonable answer might be that the elided "su'o" has
> scope wide enough to capture as many instances of  the apparently
> unbound variable as possible. I don't find it so reasonable that there
> be no possible place to make "su'o" explicit in the expression as
> presented.
>=20
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>=20
> --=20
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>=20

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