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Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 12:37:13 -0800
From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Rant (baby related): dasni, taxfu, and all their friends.
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On Thu, Dec 01, 2011 at 10:01:33PM -0500, Martin Bays wrote:
> * Thursday, 2011-12-01 at 17:30 -0800 - Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>:
> 
> > On Thu, Dec 01, 2011 at 01:06:03PM -0500, Martin Bays wrote:
> > > * Thursday, 2011-12-01 at 09:16 -0800 - Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>:
> > > 
> > > > On Thu, Dec 01, 2011 at 12:14:25PM -0500, Martin Bays wrote:
> > > > > * Thursday, 2011-12-01 at 09:00 -0800 - Robin Lee Powell
> > > > > <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>:
> > > > > > On Thu, Dec 01, 2011 at 11:54:55AM -0500, Martin Bays wrote:
> > > > > > > * Thursday, 2011-12-01 a.t 08:03 -0800 - Robin Lee Powell
> > > > > > > <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>:
> > > > > > > > If it was up to me, I'd define certain places as being
> > > > > > > > ka'e-able: that is, "this place is normally filled by X
> > > > > > > > [where in the case of botpi X would be "what the bottle
> > > > > > > > currently contains"], but even if there is no current or
> > > > > > > > obvious X, the capability is sufficient for the semantics of
> > > > > > > > this word; zi'o should only be used if the capability has
> > > > > > > > been lost".
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > As currently defined, a kabri is only a kabri if it contains
> > > > > > something; "contains vacuum" or "contains air" are both dodging
> > > > > > the question, IMO, especially the former.  So I think we should
> > > > > > canonicalize the whole "this place doesn't have to be
> > > > > > interesting" thing you just said.
> > > > > 
> > > > > But if we go from "doesn't have to be interesting" to "doesn't
> > > > > have to (ca'a) exist", then the place structure does much less to
> > > > > define the meaning.
> > > > > 
> > > > > e.g. we wouldn't have the clear difference between {ko'a zukte
> > > > > ko'e} and {ko'a gasnu ko'e} - we'd be left with just some fuzzy
> > > > > idea that in the former, there *could* have been a purpose behind
> > > > > the action - which if we stretch that 'could' far enough, is true
> > > > > of any nu gasnu.
> > > > 
> > > > My point was that *particular places* of *particular gismu* would be
> > > > marked with this behaviour.
> > > 
> > > OK. I stand by my 'yuck', though!
> > 
> > The other thought I had is making all such places definite, i.e. a
> > kabri actually is really containing the x2 by default, and marking
> > exceptions with {da'i} and friends; {kabri lo da'i djacu} is "this
> > cup could hold water", and {kabri lo da'i .i'e djacu} is "this is a
> > cup for/that should hold water".
> > 
> > Better?
> 
> Giving a special meaning to an actual cup actually kabri-ing
> a hypothetical quantity of water? That makes me even queasier than
> did the ambiguity in the first approach, to be honest...
> 
> I'd go with {ti ka'e kabri da poi djacu}, and kabri implying vasru.

That works pretty well here, doesn't cover the bottle after I've
removed its lid case, for example, I don't think?

-Robin

-- 
http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/

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