Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]:56439)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBCC9vz2BBoEEGtRfA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RYEQ8-0000hG-BA; Wed, 07 Dec 2011 02:08:17 -0800
Received: by vcbfk26 with SMTP id fk26sf325215vcb.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Wed, 07 Dec 2011 02:08:05 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references
         :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=pKAQLtr5Zkl4GEmMBOcbzIJAMLvCZ2gLIy4KT/uQq8Y=;
        b=k5N7iZr0LycyKxvWJ943ur9yhuiF9oZrs0m+UjYLfxvScYswrcbT7J9QZ6L38BF3wh
         hDvnSuyGlhX32hKsP17FT0aRWeCmyHhVfsI5CcMlsxtumdz9e0PObtHXhznxBeDHegvK
         S5GyQBFeaBcAI8/CZOZDYJWNNuos06ztutRYo=
Received: by 10.52.92.132 with SMTP id cm4mr2176508vdb.0.1323252483005;
        Wed, 07 Dec 2011 02:08:03 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.151.5.15 with SMTP id h15ls1658518ybi.2.gmail; Wed, 07 Dec
 2011 02:08:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.100.104.18 with SMTP id b18mr9452517anc.41.1323252482338;
        Wed, 07 Dec 2011 02:08:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.100.104.18 with SMTP id b18mr9452515anc.41.1323252482310;
        Wed, 07 Dec 2011 02:08:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-gx0-f173.google.com (mail-gx0-f173.google.com [209.85.161.173])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s70si306497yhj.7.2011.12.07.02.08.02
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Wed, 07 Dec 2011 02:08:02 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.173;
Received: by mail-gx0-f173.google.com with SMTP id k1so505901ggn.4
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Wed, 07 Dec 2011 02:08:02 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.182.193.33 with SMTP id hl1mr2902550obc.2.1323252482181; Wed,
 07 Dec 2011 02:08:02 -0800 (PST)
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.182.54.80 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Dec 2011 02:08:02 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CALMa68oGMRUwXbsSWDAyZP3GfDb4dJw7P8b1f5KhF0JEwcPBHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALMa68qP1rans_GfLQHb7nwthw9w5zJwEfrFr-t+uRP-FXNcMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPAJj9Kk6zgouKjRyGGDybPcM49MhLa0Rf5waNML0WPFSymtZg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALMa68oGMRUwXbsSWDAyZP3GfDb4dJw7P8b1f5KhF0JEwcPBHg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 10:08:02 +0000
Message-ID: <CAPAJj9JeKNdn_i0O84g9KuPxqQqfuNGyZ4Fypf7Bo3t+RLEqeA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] state of {binxo}
From: tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.173 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

2011/12/6 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>:
> While I don't consider the concept of an object becoming a different
> one to be illogical, I do opine that it brings more complications and
> is less useful than that of an object acquiring a property.

That seems to involve the assumption that there are *essential*
objects that persist throughout the flux of perceived changes. Is a
tree essentially a seed that has acquired lo ka tricu, or is it the
tree that virtually appears to be a seed due to lo ka tsiju that the
tree cyclically acquires and loses over generations? Or are both of
them property-acquired forms of a soil, or the Earth, or star-stuff?
How would we consistently tell "the real object" (binxo1) from
derivative properties (binxo2)? Wouldn't that be complicated?

I said that binxo1 & binxo2 are not properties from the grammatical
viewpoint. We don't usually say {lo djacu cu binxo lo *ka* bisli} (but
we can say {lo djacu co'a ckaji lo ka bisli}). And, when I say {lo
djacu cu binxo lo bisli}, I don't necessarily mean that "an object
which essentially is water" turns into "an object which essentially is
ice"; I could mean that energy changes its appearance from water to
ice.


> If binxo2 is just an object that comes to existence while taking the plac=
e
> of binxo1, then mu'a
> =A0{ko'a binxo lo bisli}
> doesn't entail at all that
> =A0{ko'a na bisli pu lonu binxo},
> since it could just as well refer to an iceberg becoming an ice sculpture=
.

Although {ko'a binxo lo bisli} (something becomes a quantity of ice)
wouldn't be a meaningful statement if {ko'a} wasn't {na bisli}, I see
your point, for which I would more consider {ko'a noi bisli cu binxo
ko'e noi bisli} (something which is ice becomes something else which
is ice).


> ra'unai in English grammar, "The water becomes ice" is analysed as
> subject-verb-predicate, just like "It seems blue", and unlike "I love you=
",
> which is subject-verb-object.

"The water becomes ice" seems analogous to {lo djacu co'a bisli}.
{*lo* bisli} may be more accurately translated as "a quantity of ice".


mu'o

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.