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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 01:11:32 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] state of {binxo}
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
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On 7 December 2011 07:08, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2011/12/6 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>:
>> While I don't consider the concept of an object becoming a different
>> one to be illogical, I do opine that it brings more complications and
>> is less useful than that of an object acquiring a property.
>
> That seems to involve the assumption that there are *essential*
> objects that persist throughout the flux of perceived changes. Is a
> tree essentially a seed that has acquired lo ka tricu, or is it the
> tree that virtually appears to be a seed due to lo ka tsiju that the
> tree cyclically acquires and loses over generations? Or are both of
> them property-acquired forms of a soil, or the Earth, or star-stuff?
> How would we consistently tell "the real object" (binxo1) from
> derivative properties (binxo2)? Wouldn't that be complicated?
>

Ontological implications need not go this deep. Objects of the discourse
are parts of the universe that may have a limited existence in space-time.
The fact that I choose to describe an event using an object which persists
through the span of the event does not mean that I neglect the limits of it=
s
existence.

That said, I do admit that this more radical notion of binxo might be relev=
ant
to a discourse.

I still would like to know: What are the implications of binxo on the exist=
ence
of binxo1 and binxo2 during the nu binxo?
Does binxo1 cease to exist?
Does binxo2 come to existence?
Always? Possibly? Never?

mu'a does
  {lo tsiju goi ko'a binxo lo tricu goi ko'e}
exclude
  {ko'a ba tricu}?
  {ko'e pu tsiju}?

> I said that binxo1 & binxo2 are not properties from the grammatical
> viewpoint. We don't usually say {lo djacu cu binxo lo *ka* bisli} (but
> we can say {lo djacu co'a ckaji lo ka bisli}). And, when I say {lo
> djacu cu binxo lo bisli}, I don't necessarily mean that "an object
> which essentially is water" turns into "an object which essentially is
> ice"; I could mean that energy changes its appearance from water to
> ice.
>

I hope answers to the questions above help clarify this.

>
>> If binxo2 is just an object that comes to existence while taking the pla=
ce
>> of binxo1, then mu'a
>> =A0{ko'a binxo lo bisli}
>> doesn't entail at all that
>> =A0{ko'a na bisli pu lonu binxo},
>> since it could just as well refer to an iceberg becoming an ice sculptur=
e.
>
> Although {ko'a binxo lo bisli} (something becomes a quantity of ice)
> wouldn't be a meaningful statement if {ko'a} wasn't {na bisli}, I see
> your point, for which I would more consider {ko'a noi bisli cu binxo
> ko'e noi bisli} (something which is ice becomes something else which
> is ice).
>
>
>> ra'unai in English grammar, "The water becomes ice" is analysed as
>> subject-verb-predicate, just like "It seems blue", and unlike "I love yo=
u",
>> which is subject-verb-object.
>
> "The water becomes ice" seems analogous to {lo djacu co'a bisli}.
> {*lo* bisli} may be more accurately translated as "a quantity of ice".
>

"The water becomes a quantity of ice" has the same analysis, and is still
a valid translation of {lo djacu co'a bisli}. But if you want a lojbanicall=
y
nominal predicative, I guess we could say
  {lo djacu co'a me lo bisli}

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

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