Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]:60570)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDMzYL3BBoE4V1oVA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RYceF-0004Dp-5c; Thu, 08 Dec 2011 04:00:27 -0800
Received: by ggnk3 with SMTP id k3sf2254241ggn.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 08 Dec 2011 04:00:16 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references
         :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=s0t/XBWxhzrAf0Jt6Zns6ZvU5SWWxKD0dKCn4Y6HNXg=;
        b=194WnHbsog81PRLriMmfbwisSokwi5iHj02pZYLmhQ1hpMhYmrvp9hT/V3zq4rdqB7
         7JZ3L+ZkslX9kKvz3BFoZMKqOh21wqkRK9phCWzVZKjdXUz83LQnce+sEiagof9Gi4HL
         cmACQpvalFr5SL8Qqi0DR6LY8AdEfYqGqyPlc=
Received: by 10.236.157.169 with SMTP id o29mr1025798yhk.20.1323345612682;
        Thu, 08 Dec 2011 04:00:12 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.101.211.1 with SMTP id n1ls4332008anq.0.gmail; Thu, 08 Dec
 2011 04:00:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.236.173.68 with SMTP id u44mr4906419yhl.6.1323345611781;
        Thu, 08 Dec 2011 04:00:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.236.173.68 with SMTP id u44mr4906416yhl.6.1323345611763;
        Thu, 08 Dec 2011 04:00:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-gx0-f174.google.com (mail-gx0-f174.google.com [209.85.161.174])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v43si1407706yhm.5.2011.12.08.04.00.11
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Thu, 08 Dec 2011 04:00:11 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.174;
Received: by ggnr5 with SMTP id r5so1925439ggn.19
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Thu, 08 Dec 2011 04:00:11 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.182.149.33 with SMTP id tx1mr572448obb.62.1323345611566; Thu,
 08 Dec 2011 04:00:11 -0800 (PST)
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.182.54.80 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 04:00:11 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CALMa68p0LrYiHcT3=eSVKMUGLYk8-857pFAGn7+bNoedSWG4MA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALMa68qP1rans_GfLQHb7nwthw9w5zJwEfrFr-t+uRP-FXNcMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPAJj9Kk6zgouKjRyGGDybPcM49MhLa0Rf5waNML0WPFSymtZg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALMa68oGMRUwXbsSWDAyZP3GfDb4dJw7P8b1f5KhF0JEwcPBHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPAJj9JeKNdn_i0O84g9KuPxqQqfuNGyZ4Fypf7Bo3t+RLEqeA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALMa68p0LrYiHcT3=eSVKMUGLYk8-857pFAGn7+bNoedSWG4MA@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 12:00:11 +0000
Message-ID: <CAPAJj9+-wgh2ggvNpPCHFv1Q78fB5xwyRN94KZ_G-0trf7LTOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] state of {binxo}
From: tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.174 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

2011/12/8 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>:
> On 7 December 2011 07:08, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2011/12/6 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>:
>>> While I don't consider the concept of an object becoming a different
>>> one to be illogical, I do opine that it brings more complications and
>>> is less useful than that of an object acquiring a property.
>>
>> That seems to involve the assumption that there are *essential*
>> objects that persist throughout the flux of perceived changes. Is a
>> tree essentially a seed that has acquired lo ka tricu, or is it the
>> tree that virtually appears to be a seed due to lo ka tsiju that the
>> tree cyclically acquires and loses over generations? Or are both of
>> them property-acquired forms of a soil, or the Earth, or star-stuff?
>> How would we consistently tell "the real object" (binxo1) from
>> derivative properties (binxo2)? Wouldn't that be complicated?
>>
>
> Ontological implications need not go this deep. Objects of the discourse
> are parts of the universe that may have a limited existence in space-time=
.
> The fact that I choose to describe an event using an object which persist=
s
> through the span of the event does not mean that I neglect the limits of =
its
> existence.
>
> That said, I do admit that this more radical notion of binxo might be rel=
evant
> to a discourse.
>
> I still would like to know: What are the implications of binxo on the exi=
stence
> of binxo1 and binxo2 during the nu binxo?
> Does binxo1 cease to exist?
> Does binxo2 come to existence?
> Always? Possibly? Never?
>
> mu'a does
> =A0{lo tsiju goi ko'a binxo lo tricu goi ko'e}
> exclude
> =A0{ko'a ba tricu}?
> =A0{ko'e pu tsiju}?

As far as the language is concerned, it depends on the semantic
relation between the selbri. Usually {tsiju} and {tricu} are mutually
exclusive: we normally don't think that a tree can at the same time be
a seed. But we can say that a woman becomes a teacher and remains a
woman because {ninmu} and {ctuca} are not mutually exclusive. (In this
case, we could also say that the woman acquires the property of being
a teacher, which may be the sense you are exploring for {binxo}.)

If a child becomes an adult, we normally don't think that they can
"de-become" of an adult. Conventionally speaking, {lo verba} ceases to
exist as {lo makcu} comes into existence during the nu binxo. But
when? Is there an exact turning point, or is it a gradual process?
That has to do with binxo3, the condition under which the change is
said to occur. We can say that something becomes an adult when it
reaches a certain age. And these are arbitary standards. Age of
majority, age of consent... these vary across judicial divisions. The
notion of "becoming" is often artificial, virtual, even illusional.

A change is an aspect of the fourth dimension, time, just like a shade
is an aspect of the third dimension, space. 2D people have hard time
seeing that a shaded surface of a cube is part of the cube, but it's
trivially easy for 3D people. 3D people have hard time seeing that a
past frame of a cube is part of the cube, but it's trivially easy for
4D people. We humans often stop short of seeing things in full 3D &
full 4D, and that's where problems of self creep in, I think. In a
full temporal context, there can be a process of a seed becoming a
tree and then a seed again -- the underlying entity is neither a seed
nor a tree but a seed/tree. In a full spatial panorama, there can be a
picture of a seed or a tree being interrelated with everything else in
the universe on the atomic and quantum levels -- the underlying entity
is neither a seed/tree nor a non-seed/non-tree but all. The combined
grasp would be that one whole cosmos wiggles here and there over the
matrix of spacetime -- no real becoming of something into something
else independent of the larger whole.

That's not how most people understand and speak of the world. As you
suggested, we don't have to be too serious about the ontological
essence of an object when using {binxo}. {lo ninmu} as binxo1 would be
just one of many possible descriptors for the perceived entity in
question. We could say that {lo remna} or {lo xendo} or {lo prije},
instead of {lo ninmu}, becomes {lo ctuca}. This {lo ctuca} might be
just an addition to the set of descriptors, or it might replace some
of it, for example {lo ve ckule} (a student) or {lo xukmi vecnu} (a
drug dealer). She, as a teacher, might consider herself a completely
different individual from the one who was selling drugs. The question
of whether binxo1 and binxo2 are essentially the same or different,
can be put aside. To define that binxo2 is specifically an acquired
property would be to assume it cannot be but secondary and attributive
to binxo1 as the core, the essential entity (for which we could say
{co'a ckaji}). I don't see how that would be a positive amendment to
{binxo}.


mu'o

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.