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Subject: Re: [lojban] semantic parser - tersmu-0.1rc1
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On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 12:02 AM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wr=
ote:
> As I said, this was for one narrow case, where there were no further
> complications. =A0With more quantifiers (or modes) in play, more problems
> arise.

The unpacking rule I'm proposing handles every core grammatical
construct involving logical operators (negation, logical connectives
and singular quantifiers). So did the rule used by Martin, although it
differed from mine in some cases. If you are proposing a rule that
only handles a limited number of cases, you are taking us a step back
from what we already had..

>=A0I am, for example, inclined to think that your test sentence is
> simply illegitimate, since the {su'o plise} =A0is within the scope of
> different quantifiers and thus is not guaranteed to have the same
> instantiation.

I think the assumption we are working with is that every grammatical
construct involving this core part of Lojban is legitimate, i.e.
grammatical means legitimate for this subset of the language. I don't
really see any problem with that assumption. The issue we are facing
is the abundance of potential unpacking rules, not a lack of them, so
we don't really need to discard some grammatical cases as
illegitimate.

>=A0If you do want this to be legitimate, =A0then you have, in
> fact, "there are some apples of which every boy ate some, but not every g=
irl
> did" (disjunctive predication hypothesized).

That would be:

su'oi da poi plise zo'u ge ro de poi nanla ku'o su'o di poi me da zo'u
de di citka gi na ku ro de poi nixli ku'o su'o di poi me da zo'u de di
citka

That doesn't say anything different from what I had, but it is not
clear what you gain by introducing the plural quantification, nor
where the "su'oi" came from.

>=A0Otherwise, the collapse is
> meaning-changing, a no-no in this game.

I don't follow. If we are considering any unambiguous unpacking rule,
whatever the rule is, it is by definition meaning-preserving. One may
have a preference for this or that coherent rule, and argue for the
merits of one rule over another, but it is the unpacking rule that
gives meaning to the packed sentence. The packed sentence doesn't come
with a predetermined meaning independent of the unpacking rule.

>=A0To reconstruct as you would, does
> not correspond to a real collapse rule, for it treats a quantifier phrase
> like name.

Lojban's packing rules are (in part) something like:

(1) Qx:P(x,a)  <--->  P(Qx,a)
(2) P(a,c) & P(b,c)  <--->  P(a&b,c)
(3) P(a,b) & Q(a,c)  <--->  P(_,b)&Q(_,c) (a)

where "Q" stands for any quantifier and "&" for any logical
connective. Obviously the right hand side is nothing like the standard
notation of first order logic.

The problem is that these packing (or unpackinfg) rules are terribly
underspecified, since they can be further combined, and so when faced
with something like P(Ax&~Ay,Ez) the unpacking could go many different
ways depending on the order in which we apply (some generalized form
of) rules (1), (2) and (3).

My proposed rule is simple: unpack from left to right, with the caveat
that afterthought connectives can be converted to forethought first,
so that the first connectand is clearly shown to be within the scope
of the connective. That gives:

P(Ax&~Ay,Ez)
=3D P(&(Ax,~Ay),Ez)  (convert afterthought to forethought)
=3D&(P(Ax,Ez),P(~Ay,Ez))  (by rule 2)
=3D&(AxEz:P(x,z), ~AyEz:P(y,z))  (by rule 1 twice for each connectand)
=3DAxEz:P(x,z) & ~AyEz:P(y,z)  (convert to afterthought again, just to
make it look more familiar)

There are other possible coherent unpacking rules, but I'm convinced
these are the simplest and the ones that make most sense.

A somewhat separate issue is what to do with apparently unbound
variables. The basic rule is:

(4) Ex:P(x)  <--->  P(x)

but again this is underspecified as to the order in which it has to be
applied with respect to the other rules. If you want to unpack
P(Ax,y), you get something different if you apply (1) and then (4), or
if you apply (4) first and then (1).

My preferred rule is that whenever you run into a variable x which is
apparently unbound, it gets replaced by Ex, so P(x) must be read as
P(Ex) and only then apply the unpacking rules 1, 2 and 3 in the order
described above. But even better is to never omit the explicit
quantifier.

> And do you really want to talk about all boys and girls
> everywhere?

Not necessarily, I would have added a "fe'e ro roi" if I did.

But that's not relevant to the issue, is it?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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