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<857BF1E4-628A-4E05-BC02-A90D15C6895E@yahoo.com> <1323554331.43014.YahooMailRC@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1323633014.33678.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5291628E-3707-4DE5-9EEE-7FD3772C3F96@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1323660683.21871.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 19:31:23 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] semantic parser - tersmu-0.1rc1 To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.211 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Wait. If we have a means of converting FOL into Lojban, it has -- to be=20 acceptable -- to provide a rule for a means of converting some logical=20 expression into each Lojban sentence. So, in particular, it has to provide= a=20 systematic explanation for even those sentences which are problematic to th= e=20 back conversion. This does not seem to be a trivial exercise (nor should i= t be=20 since its reverse is not trivial, apparently). This is what a grammar does:= =20 convert a semantic deep structure into a surface sentence, by rules, such t= hat=20 every acceptable sentence of the language is covered (and hard cases are=20 decided). To be sure (well, actually I am not sure) that every FOL sentenc= e can=20 be converted into some Lojban sentence in a trivial way; the trick is to co= nvert=20 into all of the Lojban sentences that a speaker might use to express that d= eep=20 structure. A PEG grammar or a YACC etc. are not really grammars but parser= s:=20 they tell whether something is a legitimate sentence (usually -- there may = be=20 some undecided cases) and provide a sort of analysis, but that analysis doe= s=20 little in the way of working back to the semantic content of the sentence (= {ro=20 nanla e nai ro nixli} just an NP, with not implications about its semantic = role=20 (or very few -- I haven't actually looked at the printout on this, though I= have=20 looked at enough to get a sense, I think, of how they are likely to go). Yeah, what do you do with a quantifier in the restriction on another quanti= fier=20 if the first one requires a fixed satisfaction set an the internal quantifi= er=20 depends on that set already being fixed. Messy. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, December 11, 2011 4:57:50 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] semantic parser - tersmu-0.1rc1 On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 7:37 PM, John E. Clifford wr= ote: > On Dec 11, 2011, at 2:52 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrot= e: >> >> Converting FOL into Lojban is trivial. > > Not obviously, since you are about to introduce expressions which are mor= e=20 >remote from FOL and thus, Converting FOL into Lojban is not the same thing as converting Lojban into FOL. The first is trivial, the other has some complications. Lojban has expressions that do not convert into FOL without some manipulation, whereas FOL expressions convert into Lojban directly and rather trivially. > even if arbitrary and conventional, subject to things like unintended=20 >consequences (omitted arguments, {zo'e}, and, I assume, all the descriptio= ns are=20 >the currently interesting cases). But that's not a part of converting FOL into Lojban. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.