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[66.94.236.255]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id c11si13066527bke.3.2011.12.12.10.26.12; Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.255 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.255; Received: from [66.94.237.199] by nm29.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2011 18:26:11 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.104] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2011 18:26:11 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1009.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2011 18:26:11 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 616289.95739.bm@omp1009.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 76220 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Dec 2011 18:26:11 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: ncUIdu4VM1mFhS_NF1pSYKFMuWNeNAKVrcbI23q9hXrRZzZ ryF.LP4wDMSyZJHSmzf_9w0qMeZd0kL9EUl3P.I4K1vXIsQW4DeCrW.dTvU3 Xmi78X_NWqdiOf1vsswTKF5t_wqchL1iPf75XEs.4rJYqXILjL9ZH..Khnj1 MljryrPgOxMB03132A2TzmwVWcLYPADivCS.j6l7VNeIcqf4NBrGacjrIsb7 pMH2EtsDHFoWfiS9MMJpNzQ696dyyRUxVfJ0hy6NW3EvekjavID798Jnypqz xaNj70.z5eaGXePB8p3Jn8E1sKLGgSv7_UY49GdkCnU7s.xe1kSf0uMv_.AM s6vGOXfyo9fJiUB0XFLWqKY5M_7u0sI__xHJLQon2KZahMQ6XO_qJ4zvzlh3 Y5GHzDKQYpiO7uVL.JLKrdmVFK4Lh.VIVCbjCyzgAPsX1d7O2muTFZZj0AFP a0j7XH2biVo.m6cmwuPGFhUdZNlt2X5Nf_C6a8ajPouRKVHa1DLBadTQ08Lp REAMPK3c2JoCfXCI.nDXk1CPTw7teLKSsE.8DvqXNcg-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:26:10 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/589 YahooMailWebService/0.8.115.331698 References: <1323554331.43014.YahooMailRC@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1323633014.33678.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5291628E-3707-4DE5-9EEE-7FD3772C3F96@yahoo.com> <1323660683.21871.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EE576E4.60308@gmail.com> <20111212162400.GA11272@gonzales> Message-ID: <1323714370.76209.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:26:10 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] semantic parser - tersmu-0.1rc1 To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <20111212162400.GA11272@gonzales> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.255 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Well, once again, it is trivial to get some Lojban sentence for each FOL sentence; the trick is to get every legitimate expression of that FOL sentence. Or, in other words, a grammar that explains every Lojban sentence in terms of FOL (well, I am ready to concede this may be SOL and that, of course, very extended). In particular, it has been noted, non-standard quantifiers (like "most" and "few", say) and restricted quantifiers present problems at the lowest level -- what is a rational way to derive them from logic (or how must we expand our notion of logic to make a derivation, if not trivial, then at least rational). This obviously overlaps the reverse problem and probably needs to be considered with it in a bootstrapping operation. ----- Original Message ---- From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, December 12, 2011 10:24:00 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] semantic parser - tersmu-0.1rc1 * Monday, 2011-12-12 at 09:16 -0600 - John E. Clifford : > Well, point one goes against orthodoxy for languages in general and > certainly for Lojban in particular. Point two is generally true, but > much harder is not impossible. In general, the move from FOL to > Lojban ought to seem easier than the reverse, but even that may be > illusory. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. FOL to Lojban is entirely trivial. Assuming a relational language and that every relation is the interpretation of some selbri: use {su'o da zo'u} and {ro da zo'u} for the quantifiers, and use geks for the boolean operations. There are no issues at all. Martin > On Dec 11, 2011, at 9:37 PM, vitci'i wrote: > > > On 12/11/2011 09:31 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > >> Wait. If we have a means of converting FOL into Lojban, it has -- to be > >> acceptable -- to provide a rule for a means of converting some logical > >> expression into each Lojban sentence. So, in particular, it has to provide >a > > >> systematic explanation for even those sentences which are problematic to the > > >> back conversion. > > > > That doesn't follow. There may be some well-formed Lojban expressions > > that are not produced by converting any FOL expression. Alternatively, > > there exist some relations which are much harder to compute in one > > direction than the other. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >"lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >"lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.