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[192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z2si5089441pbn.1.2011.12.12.10.53.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (IDENT:root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.5/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pBCIrjer014071 for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2011 18:53:45 GMT Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1RaB0T-0006pQ-2r for lojban@googlegroups.com; Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:53:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:53:45 -0500 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] semantic parser - tersmu-0.1rc1 Message-ID: <20111212185344.GB29266@gonzales> References: <1323633014.33678.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5291628E-3707-4DE5-9EEE-7FD3772C3F96@yahoo.com> <1323660683.21871.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EE576E4.60308@gmail.com> <20111212162400.GA11272@gonzales> <1323714370.76209.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0F1p//8PRICkK4MW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1323714370.76209.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: certu User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Monday, 2011-12-12 at 10:26 -0800 - John E Clifford : > Well, once again, it is trivial to get some Lojban sentence for each FOL= =20 > sentence; the trick is to get every legitimate expression of that FOL sen= tence. =20 Ah! Yes, that's harder. Unclear why you'd want to do it, although finding the *shortest* lojban sentence expressing a given FOL sentence is a reasonable problem. If we talk literally just about FOL, that shouldn't be too difficult, as the fragment of lojban which corresponds to FOL is quite small and easy enough to understand (modulo minor controversy regarding some edge cases, as discussed in this thread). > Or, in other words, a grammar that explains every Lojban sentence in term= s of=20 > FOL (well, I am ready to concede this may be SOL and that, of course, ver= y=20 > extended). In particular, it has been noted, non-standard quantifiers (l= ike=20 > "most" and "few", say) and restricted quantifiers present problems at the= lowest=20 > level -- what is a rational way to derive them from logic (or how must we= expand=20 > our notion of logic to make a derivation, if not trivial, then at least= =20 > rational).=20 Extending FOL with generalised quantifiers corresponding exactly to those in lojban seems the obviously correct thing to do. Giving semantics and proof theory for the resulting logic is a separate issue, and I don't think we should expect anything very clean or complete (because pragmatics is crucial to understanding e.g. "most"). Martin > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Martin Bays > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Mon, December 12, 2011 10:24:00 AM > Subject: Re: [lojban] semantic parser - tersmu-0.1rc1 >=20 > * Monday, 2011-12-12 at 09:16 -0600 - John E. Clifford : >=20 > > Well, point one goes against orthodoxy for languages in general and > > certainly for Lojban in particular. Point two is generally true, but > > much harder is not impossible. In general, the move from FOL to > > Lojban ought to seem easier than the reverse, but even that may be > > illusory. >=20 > I'm not sure what you're getting at here. FOL to Lojban is entirely > trivial. Assuming a relational language and that every relation is > the interpretation of some selbri: use {su'o da zo'u} and {ro da zo'u} > for the quantifiers, and use geks for the boolean operations. There are > no issues at all. >=20 > Martin >=20 > > On Dec 11, 2011, at 9:37 PM, vitci'i wro= te: > >=20 > > > On 12/11/2011 09:31 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > > >> Wait. If we have a means of converting FOL into Lojban, it has -- t= o be=20 > > >> acceptable -- to provide a rule for a means of converting some logic= al=20 > > >> expression into each Lojban sentence. So, in particular, it has to = provide=20 > >a=20 > > > > >> systematic explanation for even those sentences which are problemati= c to the=20 > > > > >> back conversion. > > >=20 > > > That doesn't follow. There may be some well-formed Lojban expressions > > > that are not produced by converting any FOL expression. Alternatively, > > > there exist some relations which are much harder to compute in one > > > direction than the other. > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups=20 > >"lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 > >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at=20 > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps=20 > >"lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 > >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at=20 > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >=20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at=20 > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk7mTbgACgkQULC7OLX7LNZargCeMkPhAj2/3foOAQGCB/GLSbFO 5GQAnA6KVOuuINKj8UhQ8Nr4VK0rol5y =3nYA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW--