Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]:39569)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCK30vq5WELDOo_cEGgSD97Ss@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RatKM-0008KC-6P; Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:13:25 -0800
Received: by dajx4 with SMTP id x4sf1129927daj.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:13:08 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id
         :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post
         :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe
         :content-type:content-disposition;
        bh=TSbcUdFCyw0bmReDTCuqSIwrl6fIvS5+ysiZvgJ3FF0=;
        b=skmweCAqZ7kUSkjnyc65Q4/ep8e8OC8D9Uo5ZTq/9HyiQEYey5yip4mGqefgAKmkkM
         IeFHxlhQcBtfZGqfR/z5sLP1K/bcHdPBud9Q/HqNoElXu/0DSpLVfeHRbXDTLVuxCo2D
         SMOM1M5QjLUfxDmMCcr6J3g0Cy0iE8GjGtHGs=
Received: by 10.68.73.129 with SMTP id l1mr659950pbv.9.1323886384214;
        Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:13:04 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.68.51.72 with SMTP id i8ls5723111pbo.5.gmail; Wed, 14 Dec 2011
 10:13:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.68.75.170 with SMTP id d10mr2520267pbw.6.1323886382736;
        Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:13:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.68.75.170 with SMTP id d10mr2520266pbw.6.1323886382725;
        Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:13:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from stodi.digitalkingdom.org (mail.digitalkingdom.org. [173.13.139.236])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j5si2075576pbi.0.2011.12.14.10.13.02
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:13:02 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.236 as permitted sender) client-ip=173.13.139.236;
Received: from rlpowell by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>)
	id 1RatK9-0008K9-Dd
	for lojban@googlegroups.com; Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:13:01 -0800
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:13:01 -0800
From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] "If", da'i, and mu'ei
Message-ID: <20111214181301.GF21878@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
References: <20111214023645.GB21878@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <20111214070345.GD21878@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <CALm==BWoc5MJci4D9VD3V3f7rWsBb_nURd4E5NJbDuQGfapzgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEimHHDsiUTBizTz-Lx4rZ7jkBiwPE6qE3usEEUBvmW1mK6sDw@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAEimHHDsiUTBizTz-Lx4rZ7jkBiwPE6qE3usEEUBvmW1mK6sDw@mail.gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates
 173.13.139.236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

They are also good for "would" and "could":

{mi kansa klama ro ba'oi du'u mi zvafa'i le mi cutci}

"I go with you in every future in which I find my shoes"

"I would go with you if I found my shoes"


{mi kansa klama su'o ba'oi du'u mi zvafa'i le mi cutci}

"I go with you in at least one future in which I find my shoes"

"I could go with you if I found my shoes"

There's something of a parallel here with {roi}:

{mi kansa klama ro roi nu mi zvafa'i le mi cutci}

"I go with you every time I find my shoes"

and {cu'o}:

{lo nu mi kansa klama cu pa cu'o lo nu mi zvafa'i le mi cutci}

"I am certain to go with you when I've found my shoes"

In fact, it may be the case that {cu'o} covers the same need, except
that it's timeless; the above is true for past events as well as
future ones.  I suppsoe you could get basically the same as the
{ba'oi} with {ba pa cu'o}.  Interesting.

There's something of a refinement discussion to be had about their
use.  In particular:

(1) Why du'u?  That seems really odd to me; {mi kansa klama ro ba'oi
nu mi zvafa'i le mi cutci} seems much more natural; "in every future
associated with the event of...".

(2) Can you use it usefully as a whole-bridi tag?  {mi ro ba'oi
kansa klama mu'i lo nu mi zvafa'i le mi cutci}, for example?  I
think that muddles the subjunctivity a bit; opinions?

-Robin

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 09:48:00AM -0500, Luke Bergen wrote:
> Wow, those are pretty sweet and fill a need that I've been feeling as well.
> 
> arpis, the tiki pages have examples and more precise definitions (
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/ba%27oi and http://www.lojban.org/tiki/mu%27ei)
> but I'll paste some here for convenience:
> *ro mu'ei lo'edu'u do mi jibni kei mi do darxi* "Were you (ever) to come
> near me, I would hit you." *
> **ro ba'oi lo'edu'u do mi jibni kei mi do darxi*"If you come near me, I
> will hit you."
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:43 AM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > Could you give an example of your {ba'oi} use, when you have a moment?
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 2:03 AM, Robin Lee Powell <
> > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 06:36:46PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 3.  I finally read up on mu'ei ( http://www.lojban.org/tiki/mu'ei ).
> >> > I like it.  I think I'll start using it.
> >>
> >> Or, rather, ba'oi; {mu'ei} itself seems confusing for the
> >> subjunctive needs I have.
> >>
> >> -Robin
> >>
> >> --
> >> http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> >> Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
> >> is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
> >> is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "lojban" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > mu'o mi'e .arpis.
> >
> >
> >  --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "lojban" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> >
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> 

-- 
http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.