Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]:53657) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RbHOX-00036E-W0; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:55:17 -0800 Received: by dajx4 with SMTP id x4sf2288326daj.16 for ; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:55:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; bh=/u26BYJFYO4+T0Gk0or0FWuYN5A6WfWz2u80pp3l+4g=; b=ZSTDvEntMNqM+XrJV2aZ6k1eGpem5H2R3ieCQu5j7ks8rf1bd7hmJjxu6GG3ZtURYq YYxvT1i2BwjfaxuH0G7nZfDYiRfVhFYyLKjU93axUtci25wnU2noMEmre6Fbwe2/TC3T f9JlJN4hwGTIW1LWUqp/sOiNZ0EXz2khA9DIQ= Received: by 10.68.74.34 with SMTP id q2mr1726744pbv.2.1323978900051; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:55:00 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.11.197 with SMTP id s5ls11924463pbb.0.gmail; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.73.229 with SMTP id o5mr5848816pbv.7.1323978899297; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.73.229 with SMTP id o5mr5848815pbv.7.1323978899287; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from stodi.digitalkingdom.org (mail.digitalkingdom.org. [173.13.139.236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n6si7146163pbg.2.2011.12.15.11.54.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.236 as permitted sender) client-ip=173.13.139.236; Received: from rlpowell by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RbHOL-00035v-Ia for lojban@googlegroups.com; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:54:57 -0800 Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:54:57 -0800 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] "If", da'i, and mu'ei Message-ID: <20111215195457.GY21878@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <20111214023645.GB21878@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20111214070345.GD21878@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>

<20111214181301.GF21878@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / No, because it asserts the main bridi, which is by definition *not* to be asserted in a subjunctive. Both halves of a subjunctive must not be asserted; that's sort of the point. -Robin On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 02:26:18PM -0500, Michael Turniansky wrote: > FWIW department, I use da'i in the sub-bridi, thusly: > va'o da'i lo nu do klama kei mi klama (under the hypothetical condition of > you going, I go) > Not sure if it answers your concerns better. > --gejyspa > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Robin Lee Powell < > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > > > They are also good for "would" and "could": > > > > {mi kansa klama ro ba'oi du'u mi zvafa'i le mi cutci} > > > > "I go with you in every future in which I find my shoes" > > > > "I would go with you if I found my shoes" > > > > > > {mi kansa klama su'o ba'oi du'u mi zvafa'i le mi cutci} > > > > "I go with you in at least one future in which I find my shoes" > > > > "I could go with you if I found my shoes" > > > > There's something of a parallel here with {roi}: > > > > {mi kansa klama ro roi nu mi zvafa'i le mi cutci} > > > > "I go with you every time I find my shoes" > > > > and {cu'o}: > > > > {lo nu mi kansa klama cu pa cu'o lo nu mi zvafa'i le mi cutci} > > > > "I am certain to go with you when I've found my shoes" > > > > In fact, it may be the case that {cu'o} covers the same need, except > > that it's timeless; the above is true for past events as well as > > future ones. I suppsoe you could get basically the same as the > > {ba'oi} with {ba pa cu'o}. Interesting. > > > > There's something of a refinement discussion to be had about their > > use. In particular: > > > > (1) Why du'u? That seems really odd to me; {mi kansa klama ro ba'oi > > nu mi zvafa'i le mi cutci} seems much more natural; "in every future > > associated with the event of...". > > > > (2) Can you use it usefully as a whole-bridi tag? {mi ro ba'oi > > kansa klama mu'i lo nu mi zvafa'i le mi cutci}, for example? I > > think that muddles the subjunctivity a bit; opinions? > > > > -Robin > > > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 09:48:00AM -0500, Luke Bergen wrote: > > > Wow, those are pretty sweet and fill a need that I've been feeling as > > well. > > > > > > arpis, the tiki pages have examples and more precise definitions ( > > > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/ba%27oi and > > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/mu%27ei) > > > but I'll paste some here for convenience: > > > *ro mu'ei lo'edu'u do mi jibni kei mi do darxi* "Were you (ever) to come > > > near me, I would hit you." * > > > **ro ba'oi lo'edu'u do mi jibni kei mi do darxi*"If you come near me, I > > > will hit you." > > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:43 AM, .arpis. > >wrote: > > > > > > > Could you give an example of your {ba'oi} use, when you have a moment? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 2:03 AM, Robin Lee Powell < > > > > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >> On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 06:36:46PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > 3. I finally read up on mu'ei ( http://www.lojban.org/tiki/mu'ei). > > > >> > I like it. I think I'll start using it. > > > >> > > > >> Or, rather, ba'oi; {mu'ei} itself seems confusing for the > > > >> subjunctive needs I have. > > > >> > > > >> -Robin > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > > > >> Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > > > >> is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > > > >> is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > >> "lojban" group. > > > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > >> For more options, visit this group at > > > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > -- > > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > > is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.