Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]:44031) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RbeW1-00076L-Gr; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:36:31 -0800 Received: by yhgg71 with SMTP id g71sf4938666yhg.16 for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:36:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=TeSzD87mipBhoDjpHn1reixqktdQWCLohMDlRbrKJy0=; b=B0+sfejBmxSjVtnJorBGQ5/BJ8UrzaI948P59wlfqA3Tl4JKH0HftVrqi3yReaQqz1 QUdCAO3KaJLXOOfLC7loiFa1wlrHzdePkVv2pM2KsHRmk1T5wVen+6taAhLXOCqdWsRl 7QMCtj3oToOIdwtb7oJEmfwqVv0kHPcR1g+QY= Received: by 10.236.157.168 with SMTP id o28mr3665340yhk.17.1324067775255; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:36:15 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.29.30 with SMTP id g30ls6910930anj.5.gmail; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.128.180 with SMTP id f40mr18046585yhi.9.1324067774042; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.128.180 with SMTP id f40mr18046581yhi.9.1324067774024; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gx0-f175.google.com (mail-gx0-f175.google.com [209.85.161.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r30si4499496anp.1.2011.12.16.12.36.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.175; Received: by mail-gx0-f175.google.com with SMTP id h1so3295765ggn.20 for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:36:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.75.72 with SMTP id a8mr5135281obw.17.1324067773744; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:36:13 -0800 (PST) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.128.35 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:36:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20111216201841.GL22027@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> References: <20111216193101.GG22027@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <4EEBA63B.4050403@gmail.com> <20111216201841.GL22027@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:36:13 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die. From: ".arpis." To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae93996df50071404b43b8dee X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --14dae93996df50071404b43b8dee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 One of the things I really like about lojban (in the abstract, not necessarily in practice) is that selbri have places which make explicit certain things which are completely implicit in other languages; one example: {rajycla} has a "by standard" place (inherited from {clani}), which makes it clear that the "standard of tallness" matters in any discussion of height, and requires a different selbri ({rajycla be zi'o}) to ignore it. It seems to me that spoken lojban will (almost) never use more than three places, common written lojban will behave similarly, and technical or pedantic lojban will have some words (depending on context) which use more places. {.ua ro di'u na'e se ganzu} On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Robin Lee Powell < rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 02:12:43PM -0600, vitci'i wrote: > > On 12/16/2011 01:31 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > These places must die! > > > > I'm kind of curious to see how far this can be taken. What would > > happen if, even in gismu, we forbade any place that can be > > replaced by a modal? > > Can those places be replaced by a modal? Which one? > > I have, fwiw, considered that posibility in my head as well. I > think that's too much of some-other-language-that-isn't-Lojban. > > > Consider {cusku}. > > > > x1 (agent) expresses/says x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for > > audience x3 via expressive medium x4. > > > > cusku1 is covered by {gau}, and cusku3 is covered by {ri'i}. > > cusku4 is covered by {xebe'i}. Though I'm stretching a bit, cusku2 > > could be covered by {fi'o jufra}, leaving us with a zero-place > > gismu. > > *snrk* > > > I am vaguely imagining a language centered around modals rather > > than predicates, with selbri being created implicitly and nonce by > > the lists of their places. I'm not sure that this is different > > from all gismu having exactly one place. > > Yeah, as I say, I've pondered that as well as a thought experiment, > but it's a different language. Probably a much more verbose one. > > -Robin > > -- > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --14dae93996df50071404b43b8dee Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the things I really like about lojban (in the abstract, not necessar= ily in practice) is that selbri have places which make explicit certain thi= ngs which are completely implicit in other languages; one example: {rajycla= } has a "by standard" place (inherited from {clani}), which makes= it clear that the "standard of tallness" matters in any discussi= on of height, and requires a different selbri ({rajycla be zi'o}) to ig= nore it.

It seems to me that spoken lojban will (almost) never use more than thr= ee places, common written lojban will behave similarly, and technical or pe= dantic lojban will have some words (depending on context) which use more pl= aces.

{.ua ro di'u na'e se ganzu}

O= n Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org&= gt; wrote:
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 02= :12:43PM -0600, vitci'i wrote:
> On 12/16/2011 01:31 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > These places must die!
>
> I'm kind of curious to see how far this can be taken. What would > happen if, even in gismu, we forbade any place that can be
> replaced by a modal?

Can those places be replaced by a modal? =A0Which one?

I have, fwiw, considered that posibility in my head as well. =A0I
think that's too much of some-other-language-that-isn't-Lojban.

> Consider {cusku}.
>
> x1 (agent) expresses/says x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for > audience x3 via expressive medium x4.
>
> cusku1 is covered by {gau}, and cusku3 is covered by {ri'i}.
> cusku4 is covered by {xebe'i}. Though I'm stretching a bit, cu= sku2
> could be covered by {fi'o jufra}, leaving us with a zero-place
> gismu.

*snrk*

> I am vaguely imagining a language centered around modals rather
> than predicates, with selbri being created implicitly and nonce by
> the lists of their places. I'm not sure that this is different
> from all gismu having exactly one place.

Yeah, as I say, I've pondered that as well as a thought experimen= t,
but it's a different language. =A0Probably a much more verbose one.

-Robin

--
http://singinst.org/= : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.loj= ban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this senten= ce is false"
is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

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