Received: from mail-iy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.210.189]:52040)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCK30vq5WEOOhr_cEGgQJiQ2v@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RbgzN-0007zF-4E; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:15:02 -0800
Received: by iaeh11 with SMTP id h11sf4363312iae.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:14:47 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id
         :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post
         :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe
         :content-type:content-disposition;
        bh=KXLHu45yw8CpALdLuzLDtITYfSDDJQsXUrKeQw3CA18=;
        b=6NCcuF4fniqWf00UW08gqOSOnybfRmpMcMGriVmZ241OyQV8JWGXeOxJYkmy0IwIyT
         DN/YUr0CiQbSDCwKf/kr3Ex5jIU9hkX72UVvbhBjIZqGz185DjYN2VYxK3ni1Efnvcrp
         eX67EVvO7Phlya6QMksY41YGVqEvFdZNBXXCI=
Received: by 10.50.185.201 with SMTP id fe9mr1096432igc.20.1324077283076;
        Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:14:43 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.231.29.8 with SMTP id o8ls837727ibc.6.gmail; Fri, 16 Dec 2011
 15:14:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.68.190.2 with SMTP id gm2mr10117925pbc.4.1324077282399;
        Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:14:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.68.190.2 with SMTP id gm2mr10117924pbc.4.1324077282387;
        Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:14:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from stodi.digitalkingdom.org (mail.digitalkingdom.org. [173.13.139.236])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z2si12320885pbn.1.2011.12.16.15.14.42
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:14:42 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.236 as permitted sender) client-ip=173.13.139.236;
Received: from rlpowell by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>)
	id 1RbgzB-0007zB-7w
	for lojban@googlegroups.com; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:14:41 -0800
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:14:41 -0800
From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
Message-ID: <20111216231440.GO22027@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
References: <20111216193101.GG22027@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <4EEBA63B.4050403@gmail.com>
 <20111216201841.GL22027@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <CALm==BWyOvtMNryXXSM23v5fKbPZUzck04y65HMUEV2WeK+YXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1324076918.98018.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <1324076918.98018.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates
 173.13.139.236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

See, I *like* {x1 is bluer than x2}.  *That* is a good use of place
structure; it gives you immediate access to extra meaning you might
actually want with no extra syllables.

-Robin

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 03:08:38PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote:
> Back in the day, most basic adjectives were inherently comparative: {blanu} was 
> officially "x1 is bluer than x2" (with maybe a few more places -- this is a 
> Loglan word here, btw).  This always raised the question, when you wanted to use 
> the merely attributive sense, "What is it bluer than when it is simply blue" and 
> the answer always was (though no one ever seemed to like) "the 
> standard/average/typical/.... one of what ever x1 is relevantly at the moment", 
> roughly "blue for a ...".  I was usually elided in the "you know what I mean" 
> way, though the opponents always treated it as a "something" elision. (Using 
> basic comparatives makes a couple of moves in semantics a lot easier, which is 
> why it was used.  I miss it)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Fri, December 16, 2011 2:36:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
> 
> One of the things I really like about lojban (in the abstract, not necessarily 
> in practice) is that selbri have places which make explicit certain things which 
> are completely implicit in other languages; one example: {rajycla} has a "by 
> standard" place (inherited from {clani}), which makes it clear that the 
> "standard of tallness" matters in any discussion of height, and requires a 
> different selbri ({rajycla be zi'o}) to ignore it.
> 
> It seems to me that spoken lojban will (almost) never use more than three 
> places, common written lojban will behave similarly, and technical or pedantic 
> lojban will have some words (depending on context) which use more places.
> 
> {.ua ro di'u na'e se ganzu}
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> 
> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 02:12:43PM -0600, vitci'i wrote:
> >> On 12/16/2011 01:31 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> >> > These places must die!
> >>
> >> I'm kind of curious to see how far this can be taken. What would
> >> happen if, even in gismu, we forbade any place that can be
> >> replaced by a modal?
> >
> >Can those places be replaced by a modal?  Which one?
> >
> >I have, fwiw, considered that posibility in my head as well.  I
> >think that's too much of some-other-language-that-isn't-Lojban.
> >
> >
> >> Consider {cusku}.
> >>
> >> x1 (agent) expresses/says x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for
> >> audience x3 via expressive medium x4.
> >>
> >> cusku1 is covered by {gau}, and cusku3 is covered by {ri'i}.
> >> cusku4 is covered by {xebe'i}. Though I'm stretching a bit, cusku2
> >> could be covered by {fi'o jufra}, leaving us with a zero-place
> >> gismu.
> >
> >*snrk*
> >
> >
> >> I am vaguely imagining a language centered around modals rather
> >> than predicates, with selbri being created implicitly and nonce by
> >> the lists of their places. I'm not sure that this is different
> >> from all gismu having exactly one place.
> >
> >Yeah, as I say, I've pondered that as well as a thought experiment,
> >but it's a different language.  Probably a much more verbose one.
> >
> >
> >-Robin
> >
> >--
> >http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> >Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
> >is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
> >is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
> >
> >
> >--
> >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> >"lojban" group.
> >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >For more options, visit this group at 
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> 

-- 
http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.