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Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:34:55 -0800
From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
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You started that like you were disagreeing with me, and then went on
to say nothing that I disagree with, except that I don't consider
BAI cheating.

What stance is it that you think I have that you just disagreed
with?

-Robin

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:02:38AM -0500, Michael Turniansky wrote:
>    I'm sorry, Robin, but I agree with arpis (and to whatever extent John E
> Clifford agrees).  One of the reasons I studied Loglan in the first place
> (and lojban after it) was precisely because of the oddity of the sumti
> place system.  If I wanted an system based on prepositional particles, I'd
> learn English.  (Well, I did, but I didn't exactly have any choice in the
> matter).  Back when I learned Loglan (1975), the didn't even HAVE any
> modals that I am aware of (but then again, this was before "Loglan 2"
> and/or "Loglan 3" ever came out, so it was just learning from Loglan 1, the
> primer, and Loglan 4&5, the dictionary.  So maybe they did have them, and I
> was unaware of it (well, I know they had the four why/becauses (the modern
> day ki'u, ri'a, mu'i,ni'i), if that counts)).  I always feel like I'm
> somehow "cheating" when I use a BAI.  Not that I don't use them.  I do, an
> awful lot.  But it just feels very unlojbanic, IMHO.
> 
>   I'm ambivalent about the x2 in he colors.
> 
>            --gejyspa
> 
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Robin Lee Powell <
> rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> 
> > See, I *like* {x1 is bluer than x2}.  *That* is a good use of place
> > structure; it gives you immediate access to extra meaning you might
> > actually want with no extra syllables.
> >
> > -Robin
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 03:08:38PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote:
> > > Back in the day, most basic adjectives were inherently comparative:
> > {blanu} was
> > > officially "x1 is bluer than x2" (with maybe a few more places -- this
> > is a
> > > Loglan word here, btw).  This always raised the question, when you
> > wanted to use
> > > the merely attributive sense, "What is it bluer than when it is simply
> > blue" and
> > > the answer always was (though no one ever seemed to like) "the
> > > standard/average/typical/.... one of what ever x1 is relevantly at the
> > moment",
> > > roughly "blue for a ...".  I was usually elided in the "you know what I
> > mean"
> > > way, though the opponents always treated it as a "something" elision.
> > (Using
> > > basic comparatives makes a couple of moves in semantics a lot easier,
> > which is
> > > why it was used.  I miss it)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
> > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> > > Sent: Fri, December 16, 2011 2:36:13 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die.
> > >
> > > One of the things I really like about lojban (in the abstract, not
> > necessarily
> > > in practice) is that selbri have places which make explicit certain
> > things which
> > > are completely implicit in other languages; one example: {rajycla} has a
> > "by
> > > standard" place (inherited from {clani}), which makes it clear that the
> > > "standard of tallness" matters in any discussion of height, and requires
> > a
> > > different selbri ({rajycla be zi'o}) to ignore it.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that spoken lojban will (almost) never use more than three
> > > places, common written lojban will behave similarly, and technical or
> > pedantic
> > > lojban will have some words (depending on context) which use more places.
> > >
> > > {.ua ro di'u na'e se ganzu}
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Robin Lee Powell <
> > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 02:12:43PM -0600, vitci'i wrote:
> > > >> On 12/16/2011 01:31 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > > >> > These places must die!
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm kind of curious to see how far this can be taken. What would
> > > >> happen if, even in gismu, we forbade any place that can be
> > > >> replaced by a modal?
> > > >
> > > >Can those places be replaced by a modal?  Which one?
> > > >
> > > >I have, fwiw, considered that posibility in my head as well.  I
> > > >think that's too much of some-other-language-that-isn't-Lojban.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Consider {cusku}.
> > > >>
> > > >> x1 (agent) expresses/says x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for
> > > >> audience x3 via expressive medium x4.
> > > >>
> > > >> cusku1 is covered by {gau}, and cusku3 is covered by {ri'i}.
> > > >> cusku4 is covered by {xebe'i}. Though I'm stretching a bit, cusku2
> > > >> could be covered by {fi'o jufra}, leaving us with a zero-place
> > > >> gismu.
> > > >
> > > >*snrk*
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> I am vaguely imagining a language centered around modals rather
> > > >> than predicates, with selbri being created implicitly and nonce by
> > > >> the lists of their places. I'm not sure that this is different
> > > >> from all gismu having exactly one place.
> > > >
> > > >Yeah, as I say, I've pondered that as well as a thought experiment,
> > > >but it's a different language.  Probably a much more verbose one.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >-Robin
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > > >Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
> > > >is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
> > > >is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> > > >"lojban" group.
> > > >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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> > > >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > mu'o mi'e .arpis.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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> > > --
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> > >
> >
> > --
> > http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
> > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
> > is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
> >
> > --
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> >
> >
> 
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> 

-- 
http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei".   My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/

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