On Wed, Dec 21, 2= 011 at 2:54 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

=A0 You want to replace all= the places that can be replaced with modals, with modals, because you find= it too hard to remember all the brivla places. =A0Did I misunderstand your= rant?

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Robin Lee = Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
You started that like you were disagreeing with me, and then went on
to say nothing that I disagree with, except that I don't consider
BAI cheating.

What stance is it that you think I have that you just disagreed
with?

-Robin

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:02:38AM -0500, Michael Turniansky wrote:
> =A0 =A0I'm sorry, Robin, but I agree with arpis (and to whatever e= xtent John E
> Clifford agrees). =A0One of the reasons I studied Loglan in the first = place
> (and lojban after it) was precisely because of the oddity of the sumti=
> place system. =A0If I wanted an system based on prepositional particle= s, I'd
> learn English. =A0(Well, I did, but I didn't exactly have any choi= ce in the
> matter). =A0Back when I learned Loglan (1975), the didn't even HAV= E any
> modals that I am aware of (but then again, this was before "Logla= n 2"
> and/or "Loglan 3" ever came out, so it was just learning fro= m Loglan 1, the
> primer, and Loglan 4&5, the dictionary. =A0So maybe they did have = them, and I
> was unaware of it (well, I know they had the four why/becauses (the mo= dern
> day ki'u, ri'a, mu'i,ni'i), if that counts)). =A0I alw= ays feel like I'm
> somehow "cheating" when I use a BAI. =A0Not that I don't= use them. =A0I do, an
> awful lot. =A0But it just feels very unlojbanic, IMHO.
>
> =A0 I'm ambivalent about the x2 in he colors.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Robin Lee Powell <
> rlpow= ell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
>
> > See, I *like* {x1 is bluer than x2}. =A0*That* is a good use of p= lace
> > structure; it gives you immediate access to extra meaning you mig= ht
> > actually want with no extra syllables.
> >
> > -Robin
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 03:08:38PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote:<= br> > > > Back in the day, most basic adjectives were inherently compa= rative:
> > {blanu} was
> > > officially "x1 is bluer than x2" (with maybe a few= more places -- this
> > is a
> > > Loglan word here, btw). =A0This always raised the question, = when you
> > wanted to use
> > > the merely attributive sense, "What is it bluer than wh= en it is simply
> > blue" and
> > > the answer always was (though no one ever seemed to like) &q= uot;the
> > > standard/average/typical/.... one of what ever x1 is relevan= tly at the
> > moment",
> > > roughly "blue for a ...". =A0I was usually elided = in the "you know what I
> > mean"
> > > way, though the opponents always treated it as a "somet= hing" elision.
> > (Using
> > > basic comparatives makes a couple of moves in semantics a lo= t easier,
> > which is
> > > why it was used. =A0I miss it)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
> > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> > > Sent: Fri, December 16, 2011 2:36:13 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die. > > >
> > > One of the things I really like about lojban (in the abstrac= t, not
> > necessarily
> > > in practice) is that selbri have places which make explicit = certain
> > things which
> > > are completely implicit in other languages; one example: {ra= jycla} has a
> > "by
> > > standard" place (inherited from {clani}), which makes i= t clear that the
> > > "standard of tallness" matters in any discussion o= f height, and requires
> > a
> > > different selbri ({rajycla be zi'o}) to ignore it.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that spoken lojban will (almost) never use mo= re than three
> > > places, common written lojban will behave similarly, and tec= hnical or
> > pedantic
> > > lojban will have some words (depending on context) which use= more places.
> > >
> > > {.ua ro di'u na'e se ganzu}
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Robin Lee Powell <
> > = rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 02:12:43PM -0600, vitci'i wrote:=
> > > >> On 12/16/2011 01:31 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > > >> > These places must die!
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm kind of curious to see how far this can be = taken. What would
> > > >> happen if, even in gismu, we forbade any place that= can be
> > > >> replaced by a modal?
> > > >
> > > >Can those places be replaced by a modal? =A0Which one? > > > >
> > > >I have, fwiw, considered that posibility in my head as w= ell. =A0I
> > > >think that's too much of some-other-language-that-is= n't-Lojban.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Consider {cusku}.
> > > >>
> > > >> x1 (agent) expresses/says x2 (sedu'u/text/lu= 9;e concept) for
> > > >> audience x3 via expressive medium x4.
> > > >>
> > > >> cusku1 is covered by {gau}, and cusku3 is covered b= y {ri'i}.
> > > >> cusku4 is covered by {xebe'i}. Though I'm s= tretching a bit, cusku2
> > > >> could be covered by {fi'o jufra}, leaving us wi= th a zero-place
> > > >> gismu.
> > > >
> > > >*snrk*
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> I am vaguely imagining a language centered around m= odals rather
> > > >> than predicates, with selbri being created implicit= ly and nonce by
> > > >> the lists of their places. I'm not sure that th= is is different
> > > >> from all gismu having exactly one place.
> > > >
> > > >Yeah, as I say, I've pondered that as well as a thou= ght experiment,
> > > >but it's a different language. =A0Probably a much mo= re verbose one.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >-Robin
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >http:= //singinst.org/ : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > > >Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > > > >is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", bu= t "this sentence is false"
> > > >is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkin= gdom.org/rlp/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >You received this message because you are subscribed to = the Google
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > mu'o mi'e .arpis.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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> >
> > --
> > http://singins= t.org/ : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > Lojban (http= ://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
> > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "t= his sentence is false"
> > is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/= rlp/
> >
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--
http://singinst.org/= : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.loj= ban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this senten= ce is false"
is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
--
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