Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]:33501) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RdUsy-0007Ev-SU; Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:43:53 -0800 Received: by dajx4 with SMTP id x4sf6488450daj.16 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:43:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; bh=y3xPzm3zO22lBp7fjsleArjXhotQ4Otvw/krlwoKQwY=; b=b5nNER6XRmOlgbubGSbdC9vCLAnVL8fx2Ir8oMtrZGzdUuIwzNKHYxBCJD1pRyfoAo e8m+SoX/DzsVCejIdGJ//phUdsEf9UNANm640qEl0fV8kJgt/F/BChUf+sax6SPF4V0n Gb7qd9jrLS9zekGluOEqlyj57hrat5B/utOkE= Received: by 10.68.74.34 with SMTP id q2mr1878784pbv.2.1324507414965; Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:43:34 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.118.41 with SMTP id kj9ls10767433pbb.1.gmail; Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.75.170 with SMTP id d10mr6181858pbw.6.1324507414034; Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.75.170 with SMTP id d10mr6181857pbw.6.1324507414023; Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from stodi.digitalkingdom.org (mail.digitalkingdom.org. [173.13.139.236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n3si7088736pbd.1.2011.12.21.14.43.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.236 as permitted sender) client-ip=173.13.139.236; Received: from rlpowell by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RdUsm-0007Ei-Aj for lojban@googlegroups.com; Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:43:32 -0800 Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:43:32 -0800 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die. Message-ID: <20111221224332.GA23459@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <20111216193101.GG22027@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <4EEBA63B.4050403@gmail.com> <20111216201841.GL22027@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <1324076918.98018.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20111216231440.GO22027@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20111221173454.GU22027@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / No, I really don't want to do that. I've played with the idea as a thought experiment, but that's not Lojban. I want to drop places that give no benefit, like mutce3 and traji3. It's not even that they're rarely used, as Jonathan Jones said (although I *am* sick of "by standard" and "under conditions" places being sprinkled randomly around the gismu list with no rhyme or reason; so hard to memorize; I would happily drop all of those). It's that they are *utterly* useless. ti lo ka blanu cu traji lo ka mleca is *exactly the same as* ti lo ka to'e blanu cu traji lo ka zmadu the latter being the default for the x3 place. The x3 has *no legitimate use* that can't be acheived by tweaking the x2. And it runs around infecting lujvo with its bullshit. -robin On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 04:54:41PM -0500, Michael Turniansky wrote: > You want to replace all the places that can be replaced with modals, with > modals, because you find it too hard to remember all the brivla places. > Did I misunderstand your rant? > > --gejyspa > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Robin Lee Powell < > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > > > You started that like you were disagreeing with me, and then went on > > to say nothing that I disagree with, except that I don't consider > > BAI cheating. > > > > What stance is it that you think I have that you just disagreed > > with? > > > > -Robin > > > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:02:38AM -0500, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > > I'm sorry, Robin, but I agree with arpis (and to whatever extent John > > E > > > Clifford agrees). One of the reasons I studied Loglan in the first place > > > (and lojban after it) was precisely because of the oddity of the sumti > > > place system. If I wanted an system based on prepositional particles, > > I'd > > > learn English. (Well, I did, but I didn't exactly have any choice in the > > > matter). Back when I learned Loglan (1975), the didn't even HAVE any > > > modals that I am aware of (but then again, this was before "Loglan 2" > > > and/or "Loglan 3" ever came out, so it was just learning from Loglan 1, > > the > > > primer, and Loglan 4&5, the dictionary. So maybe they did have them, > > and I > > > was unaware of it (well, I know they had the four why/becauses (the > > modern > > > day ki'u, ri'a, mu'i,ni'i), if that counts)). I always feel like I'm > > > somehow "cheating" when I use a BAI. Not that I don't use them. I do, > > an > > > awful lot. But it just feels very unlojbanic, IMHO. > > > > > > I'm ambivalent about the x2 in he colors. > > > > > > --gejyspa > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Robin Lee Powell < > > > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > > > > > > > See, I *like* {x1 is bluer than x2}. *That* is a good use of place > > > > structure; it gives you immediate access to extra meaning you might > > > > actually want with no extra syllables. > > > > > > > > -Robin > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 03:08:38PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote: > > > > > Back in the day, most basic adjectives were inherently comparative: > > > > {blanu} was > > > > > officially "x1 is bluer than x2" (with maybe a few more places -- > > this > > > > is a > > > > > Loglan word here, btw). This always raised the question, when you > > > > wanted to use > > > > > the merely attributive sense, "What is it bluer than when it is > > simply > > > > blue" and > > > > > the answer always was (though no one ever seemed to like) "the > > > > > standard/average/typical/.... one of what ever x1 is relevantly at > > the > > > > moment", > > > > > roughly "blue for a ...". I was usually elided in the "you know > > what I > > > > mean" > > > > > way, though the opponents always treated it as a "something" elision. > > > > (Using > > > > > basic comparatives makes a couple of moves in semantics a lot easier, > > > > which is > > > > > why it was used. I miss it) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: .arpis. > > > > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > > > > Sent: Fri, December 16, 2011 2:36:13 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji must die. > > > > > > > > > > One of the things I really like about lojban (in the abstract, not > > > > necessarily > > > > > in practice) is that selbri have places which make explicit certain > > > > things which > > > > > are completely implicit in other languages; one example: {rajycla} > > has a > > > > "by > > > > > standard" place (inherited from {clani}), which makes it clear that > > the > > > > > "standard of tallness" matters in any discussion of height, and > > requires > > > > a > > > > > different selbri ({rajycla be zi'o}) to ignore it. > > > > > > > > > > It seems to me that spoken lojban will (almost) never use more than > > three > > > > > places, common written lojban will behave similarly, and technical or > > > > pedantic > > > > > lojban will have some words (depending on context) which use more > > places. > > > > > > > > > > {.ua ro di'u na'e se ganzu} > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Robin Lee Powell < > > > > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 02:12:43PM -0600, vitci'i wrote: > > > > > >> On 12/16/2011 01:31 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > > >> > These places must die! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I'm kind of curious to see how far this can be taken. What would > > > > > >> happen if, even in gismu, we forbade any place that can be > > > > > >> replaced by a modal? > > > > > > > > > > > >Can those places be replaced by a modal? Which one? > > > > > > > > > > > >I have, fwiw, considered that posibility in my head as well. I > > > > > >think that's too much of some-other-language-that-isn't-Lojban. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Consider {cusku}. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> x1 (agent) expresses/says x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for > > > > > >> audience x3 via expressive medium x4. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> cusku1 is covered by {gau}, and cusku3 is covered by {ri'i}. > > > > > >> cusku4 is covered by {xebe'i}. Though I'm stretching a bit, cusku2 > > > > > >> could be covered by {fi'o jufra}, leaving us with a zero-place > > > > > >> gismu. > > > > > > > > > > > >*snrk* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I am vaguely imagining a language centered around modals rather > > > > > >> than predicates, with selbri being created implicitly and nonce by > > > > > >> the lists of their places. I'm not sure that this is different > > > > > >> from all gismu having exactly one place. > > > > > > > > > > > >Yeah, as I say, I've pondered that as well as a thought experiment, > > > > > >but it's a different language. Probably a much more verbose one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-Robin > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > >http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > > > > > >Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > > > > > >is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > > > > > >is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > Groups > > > > > >"lojban" group. > > > > > >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > > >For more options, visit this group at > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > Groups "lojban" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > > > > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > > > > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > > > > is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > -- > > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > > is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.