=A0 Sorry, I must have conflated your rantwith vitci'i= 's expansion. =A0I have no problem with the by standard or under condi= tions, though. (I do admit the traji3 though is stipidly placed, and rarely= useful. =A0It should be at the end)

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Robin Lee P= owell <= rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:

No, I really don't want to do that. =A0I've played with the idea as= a
thought experiment, but that's not Lojban.

I want to drop places that give no benefit, like mutce3 and traji3.
It's not even that they're rarely used, as Jonathan Jones said
(although I *am* sick of "by standard" and "under conditions= " places
being sprinkled randomly around the gismu list with no rhyme or
reason; so hard to memorize; I would happily drop all of those).
It's that they are *utterly* useless.

=A0ti lo ka blanu cu traji lo ka mleca

is *exactly the same as*

=A0ti lo ka to'e blanu cu traji lo ka zmadu

the latter being the default for the x3 place. =A0The x3 has *no
legitimate use* that can't be acheived by tweaking the x2. =A0And it runs around infecting lujvo with its bullshit.

-robin

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 04:54:41PM -0500, Michael Turniansky wrote:
> =A0 You want to replace all the places that can be replaced with modal= s, with
> modals, because you find it too hard to remember all the brivla places= .
> =A0Did I misunderstand your rant?
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa
>
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Robin Lee Powell <
> rlpowell@digitalkingdom= .org> wrote:
>
> > You started that like you were disagreeing with me, and then went= on
> > to say nothing that I disagree with, except that I don't cons= ider
> > BAI cheating.
> >
> > What stance is it that you think I have that you just disagreed > > with?
> >
> > -Robin
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:02:38AM -0500, Michael Turniansky wrot= e:
> > > =A0 =A0I'm sorry, Robin, but I agree with arpis (and to = whatever extent John
> > E
> > > Clifford agrees). =A0One of the reasons I studied Loglan in = the first place
> > > (and lojban after it) was precisely because of the oddity of= the sumti
> > > place system. =A0If I wanted an system based on prepositiona= l particles,
> > I'd
> > > learn English. =A0(Well, I did, but I didn't exactly hav= e any choice in the
> > > matter). =A0Back when I learned Loglan (1975), the didn'= t even HAVE any
> > > modals that I am aware of (but then again, this was before &= quot;Loglan 2"
> > > and/or "Loglan 3" ever came out, so it was just le= arning from Loglan 1,
> > the
> > > primer, and Loglan 4&5, the dictionary. =A0So maybe they= did have them,
> > and I
> > > was unaware of it (well, I know they had the four why/becaus= es (the
> > modern
> > > day ki'u, ri'a, mu'i,ni'i), if that counts))= . =A0I always feel like I'm
> > > somehow "cheating" when I use a BAI. =A0Not that I= don't use them. =A0I do,
> > an
> > > awful lot. =A0But it just feels very unlojbanic, IMHO.
> > >
> > > =A0 I'm ambivalent about the x2 in he colors.
> > >
> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Robin Lee Powell <
> > > rlpowell@digi= talkingdom.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > See, I *like* {x1 is bluer than x2}. =A0*That* is a goo= d use of place
> > > > structure; it gives you immediate access to extra meani= ng you might
> > > > actually want with no extra syllables.
> > > >
> > > > -Robin
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 03:08:38PM -0800, John E Cliffo= rd wrote:
> > > > > Back in the day, most basic adjectives were inhere= ntly comparative:
> > > > {blanu} was
> > > > > officially "x1 is bluer than x2" (with m= aybe a few more places --
> > this
> > > > is a
> > > > > Loglan word here, btw). =A0This always raised the = question, when you
> > > > wanted to use
> > > > > the merely attributive sense, "What is it blu= er than when it is
> > simply
> > > > blue" and
> > > > > the answer always was (though no one ever seemed t= o like) "the
> > > > > standard/average/typical/.... one of what ever x1 = is relevantly at
> > the
> > > > moment",
> > > > > roughly "blue for a ...". =A0I was usual= ly elided in the "you know
> > what I
> > > > mean"
> > > > > way, though the opponents always treated it as a &= quot;something" elision.
> > > > (Using
> > > > > basic comparatives makes a couple of moves in sema= ntics a lot easier,
> > > > which is
> > > > > why it was used. =A0I miss it)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
> > > > > To: loj= ban@googlegroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Fri, December 16, 2011 2:36:13 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [lojban] Mini-rant: mutce and traji m= ust die.
> > > > >
> > > > > One of the things I really like about lojban (in t= he abstract, not
> > > > necessarily
> > > > > in practice) is that selbri have places which make= explicit certain
> > > > things which
> > > > > are completely implicit in other languages; one ex= ample: {rajycla}
> > has a
> > > > "by
> > > > > standard" place (inherited from {clani}), whi= ch makes it clear that
> > the
> > > > > "standard of tallness" matters in any di= scussion of height, and
> > requires
> > > > a
> > > > > different selbri ({rajycla be zi'o}) to ignore= it.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems to me that spoken lojban will (almost) ne= ver use more than
> > three
> > > > > places, common written lojban will behave similarl= y, and technical or
> > > > pedantic
> > > > > lojban will have some words (depending on context)= which use more
> > places.
> > > > >
> > > > > {.ua ro di'u na'e se ganzu}
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Robin Lee Powell = <
> > > > rlpowell= @digitalkingdom.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 02:12:43PM -0600, vitci= 9;i wrote:
> > > > > >> On 12/16/2011 01:31 PM, Robin Lee Powell = wrote:
> > > > > >> > These places must die!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I'm kind of curious to see how far th= is can be taken. What would
> > > > > >> happen if, even in gismu, we forbade any = place that can be
> > > > > >> replaced by a modal?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Can those places be replaced by a modal? =A0Wh= ich one?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I have, fwiw, considered that posibility in my= head as well. =A0I
> > > > > >think that's too much of some-other-langua= ge-that-isn't-Lojban.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Consider {cusku}.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> x1 (agent) expresses/says x2 (sedu'u/= text/lu'e concept) for
> > > > > >> audience x3 via expressive medium x4.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> cusku1 is covered by {gau}, and cusku3 is= covered by {ri'i}.
> > > > > >> cusku4 is covered by {xebe'i}. Though= I'm stretching a bit, cusku2
> > > > > >> could be covered by {fi'o jufra}, lea= ving us with a zero-place
> > > > > >> gismu.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >*snrk*
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> I am vaguely imagining a language centere= d around modals rather
> > > > > >> than predicates, with selbri being create= d implicitly and nonce by
> > > > > >> the lists of their places. I'm not su= re that this is different
> > > > > >> from all gismu having exactly one place.<= br> > > > > > >
> > > > > >Yeah, as I say, I've pondered that as well= as a thought experiment,
> > > > > >but it's a different language. =A0Probably= a much more verbose one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >-Robin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--
> > > > > >http://singinst.org/ : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic futu= re.
> > > > > >Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "thi= s parrot
> > > > > >is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi= ", but "this sentence is false"
> > > > > >is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: <= a href=3D"http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.= digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--
> > > > > >You received this message because you are subs= cribed to the Google
> > > > Groups
> > > > > >"lojban" group.
> > > > > >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to<= br> > > > > > >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > > > > >For more options, visit this group at
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > mu'o mi'e .arpis.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > You received this message because you are subscrib= ed to the Google
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > http= ://singinst.org/ : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > > > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot<= br> > > > > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", b= ut "this sentence is false"
> > > > is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalki= ngdom.org/rlp/
> > > >
> > > > --
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> >
> > --
> > http://singins= t.org/ : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > Lojban (http= ://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
> > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "t= his sentence is false"
> > is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/= rlp/
> >
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> >
>
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>

--
http://singinst.org/= : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.loj= ban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this senten= ce is false"
is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
--
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