Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]:63738) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Revq8-0008RD-8i; Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:42:45 -0800 Received: by vbbfs19 with SMTP id fs19sf6508231vbb.16 for ; Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:42:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=jJ96Adsy7MZcVHcoSQ7WBGS8vpE09Q9+2kcckCHKB+Y=; b=Uo5cQ7R9lIvL5MsXDGI2cGwg8TBDi/1m6KeLtr8J67hip510p+uoyzBQ3K0e1YNO6U iw5BwXNL2OGo5BoPb5qj1iFysRIN4Lka2erxEkA58E4OL0AvABV2fzj0fMrKc+1qB5d/ kfj5N1m7oH5o+9aK5kQI3GpTfT/tlNHOYU378= Received: by 10.52.15.230 with SMTP id a6mr2950172vdd.2.1324849353795; Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:42:33 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.134.75 with SMTP id i11ls10849907vct.3.gmail; Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.88.130 with SMTP id bg2mr20129116vdb.6.1324849353043; Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.88.130 with SMTP id bg2mr20129115vdb.6.1324849353023; Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jz14si6126570vdb.1.2011.12.25.13.42.32 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.48; Received: by vbbfa15 with SMTP id fa15so10358894vbb.35 for ; Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:42:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.94.18 with SMTP id cy18mr11185801vdb.24.1324849352847; Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.172.167 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:42:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 16:42:32 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Polar Opposites and Agentives From: tsani nicte To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307cff760eb1e804b4f18797 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --20cf307cff760eb1e804b4f18797 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 It just seems to me like there are a lot of _pointless_ gismu that are simply in reality semantic variations of another gismu. It's true that we want to consider "making love" and "rape" to be different, and in fact, the particular distinction is achieved through lujvo, not through entirely different gismu. Also, I believed that the six source languages were only used in determining the sounds used in making the gismu. What deserved a gismu and what did not was rather arbitrary, if I recall correctly. This is why we have gismu such as "nikle" and "rozgu" which simply don't deserve gismu at all. (These are leftover from Loglan, I believe.) I think that the size of the gimste could be effectively reduced if we dropped all these agentive/non-agentive and polar opposite gismu. Otherwise, what's really preventing surgau from having its own gismu? or, for that matter, any lujvo at all? On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 2:55 PM, ianek wrote: > There are more such cases, like {zdani} and {xabju} - as I see it, > it's the same relation, only different order of arguments. > > mu'o mi'e ianek > > On 25 Gru, 16:00, david demartin > wrote: > > my guess is that the 6 or so languages used to find common words as base > > for gismu had all distinct terms for fast/slow... (as opposed to > > fast/non-fast). > > ...and we might indeed want to make THAT kind of a difference between > > killing and dying for example... a little bit like we want to distinguish > > between "making love" and "raping": although one is just a slight > variation > > of the other, we kind of WANT to consider them different things > altogether > > (as to assign them very different terms). > > > > dyabudy > > > > 2011/12/25 tsani nicte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How come the gimste has somtimes a different gismu that's simply > defined > > > as the polar opposite of another? Why not just use to'e? > > > The example that comes to mind is: sutra vs masno > > > > > Conversely, I once saw a like of gismu that had both agentive and > > > non-agentive versions. Why not just use -gau lujvo? > > > The example that comes to mind is: catra vs morsi > > > > > mu'o mi'e tan > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --20cf307cff760eb1e804b4f18797 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It just seems to me like there are a lot of _pointless_ gismu that are simp= ly in reality semantic variations of another gismu.
It's true that = we want to consider "making love" and "rape" to be diff= erent, and in fact, the particular distinction is achieved through
lujvo, not through entirely different gismu. Also, I believed that the= six source languages were only used in determining the=A0
sounds= used in making the gismu. What deserved a gismu and what did not was rathe= r arbitrary, if I recall correctly. This is why we
have gismu such as "nikle" and "rozgu" which simpl= y don't deserve gismu at all. (These are leftover from Loglan, I believ= e.)

I think that the size of the gimste could be e= ffectively reduced if we dropped all these agentive/non-agentive and polar = opposite gismu.
Otherwise, what's really preventing surgau from having its own gis= mu? or, for that matter, any lujvo at all?

On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 2:55 PM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote:
There are more such cases, like {zdani} and = {xabju} - as I see it,
it's the same relation, only different order of arguments.

mu'o mi'e ianek

On 25 Gru, 16:00, david demartin <davidandresloque...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> my guess is that the 6 or so languages used to find = common words as base
> for gismu had all distinct terms for fast/slow... (as opposed to
> fast/non-fast).
> ...and we might indeed want to make THAT kind of a difference between<= br> > killing and dying for example... a little bit like we want to distingu= ish
> between "making love" and "raping": although one i= s just a slight variation
> of the other, we kind of WANT to consider them different things altoge= ther
> (as to assign them very different terms).
>
> dyabudy
>
> 2011/12/25 tsani nicte <nicty...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > How come the gimste has somtimes a different gismu that's sim= ply defined
> > as the polar opposite of another? Why not just use to'e?
> > The example that comes to mind is: sutra vs masno
>
> > Conversely, I once saw a like of gismu that had both agentive and=
> > non-agentive versions. Why not just use -gau lujvo?
> > The example that comes to mind is: catra vs morsi
>
> > mu'o mi'e tan
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "lojban" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban+u= nsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

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