Polar opposite prefix and agentive suffix are two of the featu= res (in the deprecative sense) of the cursed E---o. I prefer ha= ving separate words for good and bad, death and murder, etc. There ar= e limits, of course, but it is never clear where they are -- and they aren'= t the same for everybody. You can always use the lujvo and presumably= be understood, though perhaps suspected of meiosis.

From: david demartin <davidandresloq= uehay@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, December 25, 2011 4:50:24 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Polar Opposites and Agentives<= br>
word frequency in those widely spoken languages did counte in the creation = of gismu
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/gismu+Brochure

http://dag.= github.com/cll/4/4/

and what you see as _pointless_ can be seen as quite _relevant_ depend= ing on what you WANT...
bottom line, is: you could break any language i= n zeros and ones, and there is no definitive reason to put thes= e units in bigger packs, as human beings tend to do (we don't think or talk= only with 0 and 1).
Off course, you might feel that in general it is less _pointless_ trying to= get closer to such a language (made only of 0 and 1)...

2011/12/25 tsani nicte <nictytan@gmail.com>

It just seems to me like there are a lot of= _pointless_ gismu that are simply in reality semantic variations of anothe= r gismu.
It's true that we want to consider "making love" and "rape" to be different= , and in fact, the particular distinction is achieved through

lujvo, not through entirely different gismu. Also, I believed that the= six source languages were only used in determining the
sou= nds used in making the gismu. What deserved a gismu and what did not was ra= ther arbitrary, if I recall correctly. This is why we

have gismu such as "nikle" and "rozgu" which simply don't deserve gism= u at all. (These are leftover from Loglan, I believe.)

=
I think that the size of the gimste could be effectively reduced if we= dropped all these agentive/non-agentive and polar opposite gismu.

Otherwise, what's really preventing surgau from having its own gismu? = or, for that matter, any lujvo at all?

On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 2:55 PM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> w= rote:

There are more such cases, like {zdani} and= {xabju} - as I see it,
it's the same relation, only different order of arguments.

mu'o mi'e ianek

On 25 Gru, 16:00, david demartin <davidandresloque...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> my guess is that the 6 or so languages used to find common words = as base
> for gismu had all distinct terms for fast/slow... (as opposed to
> fast/non-fast).
> ...and we might indeed want to make THAT kind of a difference between<= br> > killing and dying for example... a little bit like we want to distingu= ish
> between "making love" and "raping": although one is just a slight vari= ation
> of the other, we kind of WANT to consider them different things altoge= ther
> (as to assign them very different terms).
>
> dyabudy
>

> 2011/12/25 tsani nicte <n= icty...@gmail.com>

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > How come the gimste has somtimes a different gismu that's simply = defined
> > as the polar opposite of another? Why not just use to'e?
> > The example that comes to mind is: sutra vs masno
>
> > Conversely, I once saw a like of gismu that had both agentive and=
> > non-agentive versions. Why not just use -gau lujvo?
> > The example that comes to mind is: catra vs morsi
>
> > mu'o mi'e tan
>
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