Received: from mail-bk0-f61.google.com ([209.85.214.61]:56954) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RkDEv-0007yC-5u; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:18:15 -0800 Received: by bkat2 with SMTP id t2sf2118374bka.16 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:18:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=fGC5kZ63YfAdtakdq/cy9LBASWs4aNFih+rr8YQesGQ=; b=0K112h2yE6nhkR9/kaxNCqHPg+0J1vZrzrVONSL5J4R7LMDzl1H/YIOH5If+lMIPEA VvIEBFUQuHISSFYvhWK0oe4CpcQCyaNnCqJ9pzm69HnHhvR0Q5xG5TN+gnKMAOpC9ZL9 JDHcclzI3fjvgXlfUMVzPTzcNDI1LeLp6EJxc= Received: by 10.204.156.2 with SMTP id u2mr838984bkw.4.1326107878771; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:17:58 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.200.144 with SMTP id ew16ls57314818bkb.2.gmail; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.205.139.10 with SMTP id iu10mr967060bkc.4.1326107877799; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.205.139.10 with SMTP id iu10mr967059bkc.4.1326107877774; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e4si68846013bkv.1.2012.01.09.03.17.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.54; Received: by lahl5 with SMTP id l5so1645618lah.41 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:17:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.101.34 with SMTP id fd2mr3323044lbb.16.1326107877331; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.152.162.84 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 03:17:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <3add2d11-297a-44b9-92e6-ddb6b7ce18d5@u6g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> <201201032219.22221.phma@phma.optus.nu> <56456685-30f1-4c0b-bb0e-5dd3b331aa2a@z25g2000vbs.googlegroups.com> <102559c8-54ed-46d8-91a4-dcf6a5e032ef@k29g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> <4F060FE6.3020708@gmail.com> <81454039-c5de-4df0-b4e7-3798713ee14a@h13g2000vbn.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 04:17:57 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] nice sound for lojban "r" From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae9d67ec6f6552104b6168c77 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --14dae9d67ec6f6552104b6168c77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Differing pronunciation is "accent", not dialect. On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Sebastian Fr=C3=B6jd wrote: > coi > I'm not a linguist but I just wonder if it's really the way Pierre > describes it: that the concept dialect is defined by the usage of differe= nt > words for the same thing, not by the phonetic differences? For example, > swedish may sound quite different depending on where in Sweden you are, d= ue > to the different swedish "dialects". Incidentally there are also some > specific words for different swedish "dialects", which I've always regard= ed > as a secondary characteristic of dialects. I also wonder what the > geographical ja cultural level are in the definition of a dialect. Has an= y > lujvo yet been defined for the concept of dialect, sociolect and accent, > respectively? Since gismu generally has a very vague/broad semantic range= , > I think you could use zo "bangu" even when speaking of different > dialects/accents, right? So if you would like to explicit speak of > languages (definition?), not dialects nor something else, you'll need a > lujvo specifically for that also, right? > > However, I think it's a good thing that lojban is a bit flexible with the > pronounciation of phonemes. I think it makes sense to speak lojban with > different accents and melody. It also makes lojban easier to learn for > people of different cultural backgrounds. For example I like to pronounce > "ng" in lojban nasal as in "sing", as long as you can hear the g in the > end, and similar small variations depending on the phonetic context. > > And even if lojban has more restrictions than natlang, I think lojban wil= l > develop quite different in different parts of the world as the community > grows. For example In which combinations of grammatical constructs, tanru > and attitudinals different social groups prefer. > The most important thing would still be to be able understand each other, > right? > > mu'omi'e jongausib > > Den fredagen den 6:e januari 2012 skrev buroq_mat@yahoo.co.uk< > buroq_mat@yahoo.co.uk>: > > > There is nothing wrong if you're serious, I am lojban-in-study, so > > lojban is the logical human language. > > > > On 5 =D9=8A=D9=86=D8=A7=D9=8A=D8=B1, 23:32, Matthew Walton wrote: > >> On 5 January 2012 21:02, vitci'i wrote: > >> > >> > Dear Buroq Mat: > >> > >> > Thank you for your recent contributions to the lojban mailing list! > >> > Unfortunately, it is often difficult nowadays to distinguish humans > from > >> > bots. Please complete the following short quiz to prove that you are > not > >> > a spammer. > >> > >> > 1. Complete the sentence: Lojban is... > >> > a. a type of sandwich > >> > b. a language > >> > c. a tax form > >> > d. the act of sneezing > >> > >> > Thank you for your time. > >> > >> .u'isai lo mlapau be mi ku pu porpi pe'a > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --14dae9d67ec6f6552104b6168c77 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Differing pronunciation is "accent", not dialect.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Sebastian Fr=C3=B6jd <so.cool.ogi@gma= il.com> wrote:
coi
I'm not a linguist but I just won= der if it's really the way Pierre describes it: that the concept dialec= t is defined by the usage of different words for the same thing, not by the= phonetic differences? For example, swedish may sound quite different depen= ding on where in Sweden you are, due to the different swedish "dialect= s". Incidentally there are also some specific words for different swed= ish "dialects", which I've always regarded as a secondary cha= racteristic of dialects. I also wonder what the geographical ja cultural le= vel are in the definition of a dialect. Has any lujvo yet been defined for = the concept of dialect, sociolect and accent, respectively? Since gismu gen= erally has a very vague/broad semantic range, I think you could use zo &quo= t;bangu" even when speaking of different dialects/accents, right? So i= f you would like to explicit speak of languages (definition?), not dialects= nor something else, you'll need a lujvo specifically for that also, ri= ght?

However, I think it's a good thing that lojban is a bit flexible wi= th the pronounciation of phonemes. I think it makes sense to speak lojban w= ith different accents and melody. It also makes lojban easier to learn for = people of different cultural backgrounds. For example I like to pronounce &= quot;ng" in lojban nasal as in "sing", as long as you can he= ar the g in the end, and similar small variations depending on the phonetic= context.

And even if lojban has more restrictions than natlang, I think lojban w= ill develop quite different in different parts of the world as the communit= y grows. For example In which combinations of grammatical constructs, tanru= and attitudinals different social groups prefer.
The most important thing would still be to be able understand each other, r= ight?

mu'omi'e jongausib

Den fredagen den 6:e januari= 2012 skrev buro= q_mat@yahoo.co.uk<buroq_mat@yahoo.co.uk>:

> There is nothing wrong if you're serious, I am lojban-in-study, so=
> lojban is the logical human language.
>
> On 5 =D9=8A= =D9=86=D8=A7=D9=8A=D8=B1, 23:32, Matthew Walton <matthew.wal...@gmail.com> wro= te:
>> On 5 January 2012 21:02, vitci'i <celestialcognit...@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
>>
>> > Dear Buroq Mat:
>>
>&= gt; > Thank you for your recent contributions to the lojban mailing list= !
>> > Unfortunately, it is often difficult nowadays to distinguish = humans from
>> > bots. Please complete the following short quiz= to prove that you are not
>> > a spammer.
>>
>> > 1. Complete the sentence: Lojban is...
>> > =C2=A0a. a type of sandwich
>> > =C2=A0b. a langu= age
>> > =C2=A0c. a tax form
>> > =C2=A0d. the act = of sneezing
>>
>> > Thank you for your time.
>&g= t;
>> .u'isai lo mlapau be mi ku pu porpi pe'a
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribe= d to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To post to this gr= oup, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googl= egroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://grou= ps.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--14dae9d67ec6f6552104b6168c77--