Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]:40942) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RrsIw-000677-Tp; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:34:17 -0800 Received: by vcbfk26 with SMTP id fk26sf1636826vcb.16 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:33:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jtDp5mNFKcdRHeNIqnq3sAbflA+JCpd9W+FhnlnnbSM=; b=Jfx7URnuo/YGhvv4NHIVG7jeZsilujnUFlnTPtvF/s0An+hvWb0wThvzFty/3+l16Z QdzOranKvl8WvH0/m/dU2Zgk8H2j+c9nUti7X6fudtQqHOoR90b3MYsVaZKISKcLL/1W 9LVv5rGVeHHd/5pQFV+9VwU4MFt7gG0Ok1Dmc= Received: by 10.52.68.229 with SMTP id z5mr1565754vdt.1.1327934029924; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:33:49 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.221.2.78 with SMTP id nt14ls94520vcb.3.gmail; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:33:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.29.1 with SMTP id f1mr1534853vdh.16.1327934029445; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by bs8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:33:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:33:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <61177a1e-351e-4e94-a0f6-30d308feeaed@n6g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> References: <61177a1e-351e-4e94-a0f6-30d308feeaed@n6g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_7_2) AppleWebKit/535.19 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/18.0.1017.2 Safari/535.19,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: Metalinguistic sumti-to-selbri operator From: Daniel Brockman To: lojban X-Original-Sender: dbrockman@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=dbrockman@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / And if that message sounded a bit grumpy, well, I'm getting old. On Jan 30, 3:26=A0pm, Daniel Brockman wrote: > I just found out about latros' {me'au} and {me'ei}. > > Yes: his {me'au} is exactly the same as my {me'ei}. > > (His {me'ei} seems to be a somewhat redundant synonym for {lo ka}.). > > Since his definitons of these words seem to be a couple of months > old, I kind of wish he would invert his words to make {me'ei} match > what I and others have already been using for four years. > > But it's a great validation of the concept to see someone else come > up with exactly the same thing. > > On Dec 19 2011, 5:12=A0am, tsani nicte wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think this is an interesting proposal, but on behalf of latros, I'm > > mentioning that he has created a definition for [me'ei] already. > > Also, his definition is already on jbovlaste:http://jbovlaste.lojban.or= g/dict/me'ei > > Also, he (and some others) have already begun to use it, which his othe= r > > coined terms po'oi, no'oi, and me'au, for transcending the limits of > > first-order predicate logic, which is kind of what your proposal seems = to > > do (unless I'm seriously misunderstanding, which I easily might.) > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Jonathan Jones wro= te: > > > I don't think I understand this. How would you say what {.i do ko'a m= e'ei > > > lo melbi} says without using me'ei? > > > > On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Brockman wrote: > > > >> I think we should have a generic operator for converting a sumti ref= erring > > >> to a selbri into a selbri. =A0I propose calling it {me'ei}. =A0It'd = be part > > >> of ME. > > > >> For example, > > > >> =A0 =A0i do ko'a me'ei lo melbi > > >> =A0 =A0You have a beautiful relation to ko'a. > > > >> =A0 =A0i pe'i la xalbo na me'ei lo smuni be lo cmene be vo'a > > >> =A0 =A0I don't think xalbo lives up to his name. > > > >> This plugs a language hole that may be somewhat theoretical but in m= y > > >> opinion > > >> is pretty fundamental. =A0It also provides a way to define things li= ke > > >> {me'oi}: > > > >> =A0 =A0{me'oi foo} =3D {me'ei lo smuni be zo'oi foo} > > > >> And if you don't like {bu'a}, which is a bit awkward to quantify, > > >> depending on > > >> your standard for awkwardness, you can just use {me'ei da}. > > > >> All in all, it's a powerful tool for talking about and manipulating > > >> predicates. > > > >> For example, one could define a brivla like this: > > > >> =A0 =A0{kibro} =3D {me'ei lo smuni be zo kibro bei la jbovlaste} > > > >> Now, maybe that's not how you interpret it, but at least now you can > > >> talk about it in a precise manner. > > > >> Thoughts? > > > >> -- > > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google G= roups > > >> "lojban" group. > > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > >> For more options, visit this group at > > >>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > > > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > > > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > > > =A0-- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.