Received: from mail-bk0-f61.google.com ([209.85.214.61]:34662) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RrxqM-0001IQ-74; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:28:54 -0800 Received: by bkaq10 with SMTP id q10sf4177709bka.16 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:28:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lW/oj2yfFK/p2dkDeGeiTT/uwnJk5mJEoPWL+iZ/kz8=; b=0aLWMQb/X8M3AsBO8V4rfqRCEAfRFWSgwtkcS1jRPe8D6oR0xhxXSk5ts423gXIt3t dp7UlnAopbgFGARod/9Tleyh/0DCN2cFDNsP53aIlWMrow7p60cbLTPLC98ZbS2UAFlU XbBaT0lRPwFTKua0foxUikUgp0IaCk6gjtdDM= Received: by 10.204.154.1 with SMTP id m1mr1280344bkw.25.1327955319839; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:28:39 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.200.144 with SMTP id ew16ls16117218bkb.2.gmail; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.150.77 with SMTP id x13mr2080367bkv.4.1327955318273; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.150.77 with SMTP id x13mr2080365bkv.4.1327955318250; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bk0-f51.google.com (mail-bk0-f51.google.com [209.85.214.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 20si22729433bko.3.2012.01.30.12.28.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.51; Received: by bkbzv15 with SMTP id zv15so3480450bkb.10 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:28:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.205.130.12 with SMTP id hk12mr9162024bkc.56.1327955318060; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.35.15 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:28:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2fa43a2f-8a3d-4b19-ae52-1feb706cd28f@s18g2000vby.googlegroups.com> <6a9b6378-7845-4291-9c27-9536498f6bf6@b20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 15:28:37 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Bayesian evidential? From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015173fea7a02b74e04b7c4b149 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --0015173fea7a02b74e04b7c4b149 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I"d probably use fi'o te kanpe, as arpis mentioned, myself... --gejyspa On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 3:53 PM, D wrote: > On Jan 23, 11:50 am, Adam Lopresto wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:27 AM, D wrote: > > > > the whole idea is to > > > associate a numerical value with the sumti being tagged > > > > Hm... {bei'e} comes reasonably close to containing most of the sounds > > > of "Bayes", and doesn't seem to be in use by any other experimental > > > cmavo. > > > I'd suggest making it a MAI; the number goes in front of it, and the > entire > > thing is a free-modifier. > > That's so crazy that it just might work. > > And since the evidentials themselves are free-modifiers, it should be > simple enough to pretend that {pabei'e} and its cousins, while built > as MAIs, should be placed the way evidentials are (ie, at the start of > an evidenced sentence, or after a specific evidenced word). It also > allows for a few entertaining constructions, such as {ma'ubei'e} > meaning "more than 50% confidence" or "preponderance of the evidence", > and {xobei'e} to ask how confident the listener is about something. > > > So, how does this sound as a proposal for an experimental cmavo? > > {bei'e} > MAI > Built as a MAI, placed as an evidential. The number added to the front > is the decibels of logarithmic Bayesian probability the speaker > assigns to the word or phrase that the {bei'e} refers to. 0, > {nobei'e}, represents 50% confidence, higher numbers greater > confidence, lower numbers lesser confidence, as according to E.T. > Jaynes' standard description. > > > (There's probably some easier way to refer to how the decibels compare > to standard linear odds, but the best way I know of is simply to point > to a table, such as this one:) > > > decibels / Level of belief / Rough Odds / notes > > -oo / 0% / 1:oo / complete disbelief, unachievable save for paradoxes > > -6 / 20.0% / 1:4 / > -5 / 24.0% / 1:3 / > -4 / 28.5% / 2:5 / a reasonable doubt > -3 / 33.3% / 1:2 / > -2 / 38.7% / 2:3 / probable cause > -1 / 44.3% / 4:5 / > 0 / 50.0% / 1:1 / neither belief nor disbelief; agnosticism > 1 / 55.7% / 5:4 / preponderance of the evidence > 2 / 61.3% / 3:2 / > 3 / 66.6% / 2:1 / clear and convincing evidence > 4 / 71.5% / 5:2 / > 5 / 76.0% / 3:1 / beyond a reasonable doubt > 6 / 80.0% / 4:1 / > 7 / 83.3% / 5:1 / > 8 / 86.3% / 6:1 / > 9 / 88.8% / 8:1 / > 10 / 90.9% / 10:1 / one nine > > 13 / 95.2% / 20:1 / lone studies with p=0.05 > 20 / 99.0% / 100:1 / two nines, lone studies with p=0.01 > 26 / 99.7% / 400:1 / confirmed studies with p=0.05 > 30 / 99.9% / 1,000:1 / three nines > 40 / 99.99% / 10,000:1 / four nines, confirmed studies with p=0.01 > 42 / 99.993% / 16,000:1 / 4 standard deviations > 50 / 99.999% / 100,000:1 / five nines > 60 / 99.9999% / 1,000,000:1 / six nines > 62 / 99.99994% / 1,500,000:1 / 5 standard deviations > 87 / 99.9999998% / 500,000,000:1 / 6 standard deviations > 116 / 99.9999999997% / 390,000,000,000:1 / 7 standard deviations > > oo / 100% / oo:1 / complete certainty, unachievable save for > tautologies > > > ki'esai, > -- > DataPacRat > lu .iacu'i ma krinu lo du'u .ei mi krici la'e di'u li'u traji lo ka > vajni fo lo preti > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015173fea7a02b74e04b7c4b149 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 I"d probably use fi'o te kanpe, as arpis ment= ioned, myself...

=A0 =A0 --gejyspa

On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 3:53 PM, D <datapacrat@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 23, 11:50=A0am, Adam Lopresto <adamlopre...@gmail.com> wrote= :
> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:27 AM, D <datapac...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > the whole idea is to
> > associate a numerical value with the sumti being tagged

> > Hm... {bei'e} comes reasonably close = to containing most of the sounds
> > of "Bayes", and doesn't seem to be in use by any ot= her experimental
> > cmavo.

> I'd suggest making it a MAI; the number go= es in front of it, and the entire
> thing is a free-modifier.

That's so crazy that it just might work.

And since the evidentials themselves are free-modifiers, it should be
simple enough to pretend that {pabei'e} and its cousins, while built as MAIs, should be placed the way evidentials are (ie, at the start of
an evidenced sentence, or after a specific evidenced word). It also
allows for a few entertaining constructions, such as {ma'ubei'e} meaning "more than 50% confidence" or "preponderance of the = evidence",
and {xobei'e} to ask how confident the listener is about something.


So, how does this sound as a proposal for an experimental cmavo?

{bei'e}
MAI
Built as a MAI, placed as an evidential. The number added to the front
is the decibels of logarithmic Bayesian probability the speaker
assigns to the word or phrase that the {bei'e} refers to. 0,
{nobei'e}, represents 50% confidence, higher numbers greater
confidence, lower numbers lesser confidence, as according to E.T.
Jaynes' standard description.


(There's probably some easier way to refer to how the decibels compare<= br> to standard linear odds, but the best way I know of is simply to point
to a table, such as this one:)


decibels / Level of belief / Rough Odds / notes

-oo / 0% / 1:oo / complete disbelief, unachievable save for paradoxes

-6 / 20.0% / 1:4 /
-5 / 24.0% / 1:3 /
-4 / 28.5% / 2:5 / a reasonable doubt
-3 / 33.3% / 1:2 /
-2 / 38.7% / 2:3 / probable cause
-1 / 44.3% / 4:5 /
0 / 50.0% / 1:1 / neither belief nor disbelief; agnosticism
1 / 55.7% / 5:4 / preponderance of the evidence
2 / 61.3% / 3:2 /
3 / 66.6% / 2:1 / clear and convincing evidence
4 / 71.5% / 5:2 /
5 / 76.0% / 3:1 / beyond a reasonable doubt
6 / 80.0% / 4:1 /
7 / 83.3% / 5:1 /
8 / 86.3% / 6:1 /
9 / 88.8% / 8:1 /
10 / 90.9% / 10:1 / one nine

13 / 95.2% / 20:1 / lone studies with p=3D0.05
20 / 99.0% / 100:1 / two nines, lone studies with p=3D0.01
26 / 99.7% / 400:1 / confirmed studies with p=3D0.05
30 / 99.9% / 1,000:1 / three nines
40 / 99.99% / 10,000:1 / four nines, confirmed studies with p=3D0.01
42 / 99.993% / 16,000:1 / 4 standard deviations
50 / 99.999% / 100,000:1 / five nines
60 / 99.9999% / 1,000,000:1 / six nines
62 / 99.99994% / 1,500,000:1 / 5 standard deviations
87 / 99.9999998% / 500,000,000:1 / 6 standard deviations
116 / 99.9999999997% / 390,000,000,000:1 / 7 standard deviations

oo / 100% / oo:1 / complete certainty, unachievable save for
tautologies


ki'esai,
--
DataPacRat
lu .iacu'i ma krinu lo du'u .ei mi krici la'e di'u li'u= traji lo ka
vajni fo lo preti

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