Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]:38464)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCL3SuIvlExC-9ur5BBoEpPXfQw@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RxOPX-0003TK-Tn; Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:51:43 -0800
Received: by vcbfo11 with SMTP id fo11sf333714vcb.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:51:29 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authenticated:x-provags-id:message-id
         :date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to
         :x-y-gmx-trusted:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=MNljNKzaPuTiApzieYocSS+Q2Uh8QOMT67bKeS204fg=;
        b=VfIyG1iDd8vM6YAVLThMOv8oieqDMKlXEipDoUqXLw07wnVOP3N3nuwiZDUR8eRFXA
         KnGcDa67uIauooGD5uRUfR+rkZW8dk8WpIH6qRLfAmAfklXkopsMp9HqSo80lJJPI1R3
         2coMnnDf3hgOY+HCU/wJU6U/MaNYbGX5aQJGg=
Received: by 10.52.29.1 with SMTP id f1mr2848641vdh.16.1329249086915;
        Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:51:26 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.220.4.24 with SMTP id 24ls216004vcp.9.gmail; Tue, 14 Feb 2012
 11:51:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.52.100.4 with SMTP id eu4mr10797503vdb.7.1329249085588;
        Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:51:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.52.100.4 with SMTP id eu4mr10797502vdb.7.1329249085574;
        Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:51:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net (mailout-de.gmx.net. [213.165.64.23])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id t13si130309vdf.2.2012.02.14.11.51.25;
        Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:51:25 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of seladwa@gmx.de designates 213.165.64.23 as permitted sender) client-ip=213.165.64.23;
Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 14 Feb 2012 19:51:24 -0000
Received: from p57A09203.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.1.33]) [87.160.146.3]
  by mail.gmx.net (mp037) with SMTP; 14 Feb 2012 20:51:24 +0100
X-Authenticated: #54293076
X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19WMW5XS5lWOVfq16cQH0opPA1gKEN3InZp1h8bUe
	mjIxXd1hcOtL5j
Message-ID: <4F3ABB38.5090906@gmx.de>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 20:51:20 +0100
From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] About the word "fluent".
References: <20120214184839.GW2167@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <CAHiXx=P-s_Mue90KrGVFjShCHekctXc==vv0crbaCETaNBjfGA@mail.gmail.com> <CAHiXx=OWToZXAHEx5q=Xh6O9s9Umn3kf4AwdjaW-r-TDg1v9cQ@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAHiXx=OWToZXAHEx5q=Xh6O9s9Umn3kf4AwdjaW-r-TDg1v9cQ@mail.gmail.com>
X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0
X-Original-Sender: seladwa@gmx.de
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of seladwa@gmx.de designates 213.165.64.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=seladwa@gmx.de
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------010408050806090003040709"
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------010408050806090003040709
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Am 14.02.2012 20:23, schrieb Robin Lee Powell:
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 08:17:36PM +0100, selpa'i wrote:
>> I'm not sure the bushmen analogy holds. li'o
> I think that's really optomistic.  Sure, they might call the cars
> "magic horses", but they wouldn't both instantly think of that, or
> agree on it.  They'd be like "Uhh, that... thingy... what the hell
> should we call that?" "Ummm, I dunno.  Fast box?"  "That's kind of
> lame.  How about magic horse?" "Oh, yeah, that'll work."  [ignoring
> that bushmen don't have horses, or anything like them (that is:
> things humans ride to go faster), to the best of my knowledge]
>
> You seem to be assuming that they'd instantly come up with the
> appropriate new vocab, which I think is deeply unreasonable.
>
I think what you described there is a very fluent conversation in which 
two individuals agree on a name for a new object.
Fluency is real-time creativity and it's being demonstrated here.

>> And it doesn't matter what the reasons for that are, the fact
>> stays the same.
> Then it is physically impossible to be fluent in Lojban at this
> time, because this will happen all the time every day until idiom is
> built up.
And here I disagree. I am asserting that with the current Lojban, you 
*can* be fluent. Not having lujvo for some things doesn't mean you can't 
talk about them by describing them in "simpler" terms.

> "That is, I believe it's possible to make do with what we
> have right now, "
> I agree, and I did.
>
You did, but it took you time and effort. Fluency means speed and ease.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--------------010408050806090003040709
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-text-flowed" style="font-family: -moz-fixed;
      font-size: 13px;" lang="x-western">Am 14.02.2012 20:23, schrieb
      Robin Lee Powell:
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">On Tue, Feb 14,
        2012 at 08:17:36PM +0100, selpa'i wrote:
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">I'm not sure the
          bushmen analogy holds. li'o
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        I think that's really optomistic.&nbsp; Sure, they might call the
        cars
        <br>
        "magic horses", but they wouldn't both instantly think of that,
        or
        <br>
        agree on it.&nbsp; They'd be like "Uhh, that... thingy... what the
        hell
        <br>
        should we call that?" "Ummm, I dunno.&nbsp; Fast box?"&nbsp; "That's kind
        of
        <br>
        lame.&nbsp; How about magic horse?" "Oh, yeah, that'll work."&nbsp;
        [ignoring
        <br>
        that bushmen don't have horses, or anything like them (that is:
        <br>
        things humans ride to go faster), to the best of my knowledge]
        <br>
        <br>
        You seem to be assuming that they'd instantly come up with the
        <br>
        appropriate new vocab, which I think is deeply unreasonable.
        <br>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      I think what you described there is a very fluent conversation in
      which two individuals agree on a name for a new object.
      <br>
      Fluency is real-time creativity and it's being demonstrated here.
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
        <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">And it doesn't
          matter what the reasons for that are, the fact
          <br>
          stays the same.
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        Then it is physically impossible to be fluent in Lojban at this
        <br>
        time, because this will happen all the time every day until
        idiom is
        <br>
        built up.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      And here I disagree. I am asserting that with the current Lojban,
      you <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>can<span
          class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> be fluent. Not having lujvo
      for some things doesn't mean you can't talk about them by
      describing them in "simpler" terms.
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">"That is, I
        believe it's possible to make do with what we
        <br>
        have right now, "
        <br>
        I agree, and I did.
        <br>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      You did, but it took you time and effort. Fluency means speed and
      ease.
      <br>
    </div>
  </body>
</html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.<br />



--------------010408050806090003040709--