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 Content preview:  Well, in analysing the jvajvo forms of these, in Lojban: lo
    ka telga'o cu ka ce'u poi ke'a se stela ce'u ce'u cu ganlo ce'u ce'u or lo
    ka telga'o cu ka ce'u se stela ce'u ce'u gi'e ganlo ce'u ce'u g1=s2 is locked
    by lock s1 using mechanism s3, preventing access to g2 from g3 The jvojva
    make telga'o suck. IMO, ganlo also is sufficient; adding [fi'o stela] helps
    in precision. [...] 
 
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Well, in analysing the jvajvo forms of these, in Lojban:
lo ka telga'o cu ka ce'u poi ke'a se stela ce'u ce'u cu ganlo ce'u ce'u
 or
lo ka telga'o cu ka ce'u se stela ce'u ce'u gi'e ganlo ce'u ce'u
g1=s2 is locked by lock s1 using mechanism s3, preventing access to g2 from
g3
The jvojva make telga'o suck. IMO, ganlo also is sufficient; adding [fi'o
stela] helps in precision.

telgau:
lo ka telgau cu ka ce'u gasnu lo nu ce'u stela ce'u ce'u
g1 locks lock s1 locking s2 with locking mechanism s3 (jeez, I sound like
noralujv on that one)
This one is jvojva, that makes me happy.

telcaugau:
lo ka telcaugau cu ka ce'u gasnu lo nu ce'u goi ko'a claxu lo ka ce'u stela
ko'a ce'u
g1 causes c1=s2 to lack being locked by lock s1 using locking mechanism s3
i.e. x1=g1 releases lock x3=s1 on x2=c1=s2 using locking mechanism x4=s3
Also jvajvo, but less so than the next one. I personally prefer this one
over the next one, as "lacking the property of being locked" is clearer
than "opposite(lock)", in my opinion.

toltelgau
lo ka toltelgau cu ka ce'u gasnu lo nu ce'u to'e stela ce'u ce'u
g1 causes lock s1 to not lock s2 with locking mechanism s3
Completely jvajvo. However, the way I see it, [to'e] is much less clear
than [claxu].

I think that [cirko] instead of [claxu] might be better; it creates the
implication that the lock *was* locked before being unlocked, which claxu
doesn't quite imply. Using claxu might just mean that the x1 is simply
causing the lock to remain locked, i.e. lack the property of being locked.
However, cirko really does imply that the x1 is causing the lock to lose
the property of being locked and thus that it was unlocked prior to the
event.
Similarly, cirko can be used for the inverse, with [to'e]: to'e stela cirko
gasnu -> toltelcrigau.
Using cirko has the advantage of supplying an "under circumstances" place
that can be used to specify various details pertaining to the event (maybe
some locks are only lockable/unlockable at certain times or maybe some
other condition needs to be met, such as [lo nu pilno lo ckiku] ;) ).

In general for asymmetrical lujvo, it is possible to "flip" the tanru
elements into abstractions:
rodgau -> gasnu lo nu broda
rodclagau -> gasnu lo nu claxu lo ka broda
rodclacrigau -> gasnu lo nu cirko lo ka claxu lo ka broda
etc.

Finally, analysing the lujvo structure in Lojban is always more helpful,
and usually aids in creating coherent lujvo.

mu'o mi'e la tsani

On 14 February 2012 01:20, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:

> Are all these definitions in {lojbo jufsisku} right? I'm
> wondering specifically about "telgau" and related forms.
>  telga'o
> *lujvo* g1=s2 is locked, preventing access to g2 by g3, the lock being s1 using
> mechanism s3. Cf. stela, ganlo, telgau, ga'orgau.
>
> telgau
> *lujvo* g1 locks lock s1 on s2 by mechanism s3.
> Cf. stela, gasnu, telga'o, ga'orgau.
>
> telcaugau
> *lujvo* g1 unlocks/unseals c1=s2 using lock/seal s1 with mechnism s3.
> Cf. stela, claxu, gasnu, toltelgau, telga'o, ga'orgau.
>
> toltelgau
> *lujvo* g1 unlocks lock s1 on s2 by mechanism s3.
> Cf. to'e, stela, gasnu, telgau, telga'o, telcaugau, kargau.
>
> stevo
>
> --
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Well, in analysing the jvajvo forms of these, in Lojban:<div>lo ka telga&#3=
9;o cu ka ce&#39;u poi ke&#39;a se stela ce&#39;u ce&#39;u cu ganlo ce&#39;=
u ce&#39;u =A0 =A0 =A0or</div><div>lo ka telga&#39;o cu ka ce&#39;u se stel=
a ce&#39;u ce&#39;u gi&#39;e ganlo ce&#39;u ce&#39;u</div>

<div>g1=3Ds2 is locked by lock s1 using mechanism s3, preventing access to =
g2 from g3</div><div>The jvojva make telga&#39;o suck. IMO, ganlo also is s=
ufficient; adding [fi&#39;o stela] helps in precision.</div><div><br></div>

<div>telgau:</div><div>lo ka telgau cu ka ce&#39;u gasnu lo nu ce&#39;u ste=
la ce&#39;u ce&#39;u</div><div>g1 locks lock s1 locking s2 with locking mec=
hanism s3 (jeez, I sound like noralujv on that one)</div><div>This one is j=
vojva, that makes me happy.</div>

<div><br></div><div>telcaugau:</div><div>lo ka telcaugau cu ka ce&#39;u gas=
nu lo nu ce&#39;u goi ko&#39;a claxu lo ka ce&#39;u stela ko&#39;a ce&#39;u=
</div><div>g1 causes c1=3Ds2 to lack being locked by lock s1 using locking =
mechanism s3</div>

<div>i.e. x1=3Dg1 releases lock x3=3Ds1 on x2=3Dc1=3Ds2 using locking mecha=
nism x4=3Ds3</div><div>Also jvajvo, but less so than the next one. I person=
ally prefer this one over the next one, as &quot;lacking the property of be=
ing locked&quot; is clearer than &quot;opposite(lock)&quot;, in my opinion.=
</div>

<div><br></div><div>toltelgau</div><div>lo ka toltelgau cu ka ce&#39;u gasn=
u lo nu ce&#39;u to&#39;e stela ce&#39;u ce&#39;u</div><div>g1 causes lock =
s1 to not lock s2 with locking mechanism s3</div><div>Completely jvajvo. Ho=
wever, the way I see it, [to&#39;e] is much less clear than [claxu].</div>

<div><br></div><div>I think that [cirko] instead of [claxu] might be better=
; it creates the implication that the lock *was* locked before being unlock=
ed, which claxu doesn&#39;t quite imply. Using claxu might just mean that t=
he x1 is simply causing the lock to remain locked, i.e. lack the property o=
f being locked. However, cirko really does imply that the x1 is causing the=
 lock to lose the property of being locked and thus that it was unlocked pr=
ior to the event.</div>

<div>Similarly, cirko can be used for the inverse, with [to&#39;e]: to&#39;=
e stela cirko gasnu -&gt; toltelcrigau.</div><div>Using cirko has the advan=
tage of supplying an &quot;under circumstances&quot; place that can be used=
 to specify various details pertaining to the event (maybe some locks are o=
nly lockable/unlockable at certain times or maybe some other condition need=
s to be met, such as [lo nu pilno lo ckiku] ;) ).</div>

<div><br></div><div>In general for asymmetrical lujvo, it is possible to &q=
uot;flip&quot; the tanru elements into abstractions:</div><div>rodgau -&gt;=
 gasnu lo nu broda</div><div>rodclagau -&gt; gasnu lo nu claxu lo ka broda<=
/div>

<div>rodclacrigau -&gt; gasnu lo nu cirko lo ka claxu lo ka broda</div><div=
>etc.</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, analysing the lujvo structure in Lo=
jban is always more helpful, and usually aids in creating coherent lujvo.</=
div>

<div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la tsani</div><div><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On 14 February 2012 01:20, MorphemeAddict <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:lytlesw@gmail.com">lytlesw@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Are=A0all=A0these definitions in {lojbo jufs=
isku} right? I&#39;m wondering=A0specifically=A0about &quot;telgau&quot; an=
d related forms.=A0<br>

<div><table style=3D"font-size:16px;width:1197px;font-family:helvatica,aria=
l">


<tbody><tr><td style=3D"padding-top:6px;padding-right:6px;padding-bottom:6p=
x;padding-left:6px;width:941px"><div style=3D"font-family:&#39;Lucida Conso=
le&#39;,monospace">telga&#39;o</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">
<b>lujvo</b>=A0g<sub>1</sub>=3Ds<sub>2</sub>=A0is locked, preventing access=
 to g<sub>2</sub>=A0by g<sub>3</sub>, the lock being s<sub>1</sub>=A0using =
mechanism s<sub>3</sub>. Cf.=A0stela,=A0ganlo,=A0telgau,=A0ga&#39;orgau.</d=
iv></td><td style=3D"padding-top:6px;padding-right:6px;padding-bottom:6px;p=
adding-left:6px;width:226px">




<div style=3D"font-size:0.8em"><br></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding=
-top:6px;padding-right:6px;padding-bottom:6px;padding-left:6px;width:941px"=
><div style=3D"font-family:&#39;Lucida Console&#39;,monospace">
telgau</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)"><b>lujvo</b>=A0g<sub>1</s=
ub>=A0locks lock s<sub>1</sub>=A0on s<sub>2</sub>=A0by mechanism s<sub>3</s=
ub>. Cf.=A0stela,=A0gasnu,=A0telga&#39;o,=A0ga&#39;orgau.</div></td><td sty=
le=3D"padding-top:6px;padding-right:6px;padding-bottom:6px;padding-left:6px=
;width:226px">




<div style=3D"font-size:0.8em"><br></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding=
-top:6px;padding-right:6px;padding-bottom:6px;padding-left:6px;width:941px"=
><div style=3D"font-family:&#39;Lucida Console&#39;,monospace">
telcaugau</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)"><b>lujvo</b>=A0g<sub>1=
</sub>=A0unlocks/unseals c<sub>1</sub>=3Ds<sub>2</sub>=A0using lock/seal s<=
sub>1</sub>=A0with mechnism s<sub>3</sub>. Cf.=A0stela,=A0claxu,=A0gasnu,=
=A0toltelgau,=A0telga&#39;o,=A0ga&#39;orgau.</div>




</td><td style=3D"padding-top:6px;padding-right:6px;padding-bottom:6px;padd=
ing-left:6px;width:226px"><div style=3D"font-size:0.8em"><br></div></td></t=
r><tr><td style=3D"padding-top:6px;padding-right:6px;padding-bottom:6px;pad=
ding-left:6px;width:941px">




<div style=3D"font-family:&#39;Lucida Console&#39;,monospace">toltelgau</di=
v><div style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)"><b>lujvo</b>=A0g<sub>1</sub>=A0unlo=
cks lock s<sub>1</sub>=A0on s<sub>2</sub>=A0by mechanism s<sub>3</sub>. Cf.=
=A0to&#39;e,=A0stela,=A0gasnu,=A0telgau,=A0telga&#39;o,=A0telcaugau,=A0karg=
au.</div>




<div style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(102=
,102,102)">stevo</div></td></tr></tbody></table></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb=
"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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