Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]:44886) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ryzn1-000816-78; Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:58:31 -0800 Received: by yenr5 with SMTP id r5sf5031870yen.16 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:58:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:received-spf:mime-version:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=BRDAMukeU9BJ8JXcpvi2z6CCMV9gPFSOZQ7i5iWQ76o=; b=AXeAepzdibGafbr6e7TfH581xrm9zLzcBBJ0x3iq/4HH+ra3w7WiiNWikCko0+kChX +yEkqjhAiKccpI2OHmLF2hrOl/MDuYu0BfyRSdgQZo0IBgfjHAzwRX1V9OkdSTFyHqbl wAXQPW6dLeA7GnCUIbb9gehUoeJ2H87tFg6GM= Received: by 10.50.187.194 with SMTP id fu2mr1257947igc.5.1329631098049; Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:58:18 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.207.65 with SMTP id lu1ls4990122igc.0.canary; Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.47.132 with SMTP id d4mr1759636ign.1.1329631096714; Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.47.132 with SMTP id d4mr1759635ign.1.1329631096702; Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-tul01m020-f172.google.com (mail-tul01m020-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id df4si1336192igb.1.2012.02.18.21.58.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.172; Received: by obbwd15 with SMTP id wd15so6901843obb.31 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 10.60.28.36 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.60.28.36; Received: from mr.google.com ([10.60.28.36]) by 10.60.28.36 with SMTP id y4mr6619590oeg.48.1329631096475 (num_hops = 1); Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.28.36 with SMTP id y4mr5665725oeg.48.1329631096406; Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:58:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.56.3 with HTTP; Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:57:55 -0800 (PST) From: Jacob Errington Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 00:57:55 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] ka'e/kakne & mapti/sarxe To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb1f5562f022a04b94add6d X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8fb1f5562f022a04b94add6d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Some questions regarding those terms and their implications. For starters, what is the meaning of a kakne where kakne1 doesn't appear in the kakne2 event? {i mi kakne lo nu do citka ci lo plise} -- "I am capable of you eating three apples?" kakne-bridi where kakne1 appears in kakne2 seems to be able to resolve into ka'e-bridi: {i mi kakne lo nu mi citka ci lo plise} -> {i mi ka'e citka ci lo plise} but bridi such as the former do not seem to posses this quality. The CLL seems to make all kinds of claims about a particular sumti of ka'e-bridi. For instance, in the ducks example, the CLL basically says that the bridi is true due to some innate property of ducks, i.e. that they can all swim. It seems to me like ka'e might have a more useful interpretation if we accept the BPFK CAhA as sumtcita proposal, where ka'e is equivalent to su'omu'ei. In particular, "there are some number of worlds, possibly this one, in which [bridi] is true". [ka'e] then becomes the loosest CAhA, where any CAhA can be ka'e: ca'a: "in some number of worlds and this one" pu'i: "in some number of words and this one" nu'o: "in some number of worlds excluding this one" where "this one" is "the world of dei, or of the tagged sumti if present" This doesn't invalidate the "blind people ka'e see" sentence, as there exists a world in which they haven't lost their ability to see. [ca'a] and [pu'i] seem redundant, but they simply create an implicit temporal distinction As for mapti and sarxe, it was suggested that a parallel exists between those two and ka'e ane kakne, such that mapti is to ka'e as sarxe is to kakne. Concretely, the example is: mapti: "does the suit fit?" --parallels ka'e sarxe: "does it look good on you?" --parallels kakne I don't quite understand this parallel. Does anyone? Returning to the point, mapti seems to be about objective relationships and correspondences, such as a suit fitting, or a better word being more appropriate, whereas sarxe is more about a subjective quality. For instance, two persons might sarxe if they get along well, or a cup of coffee might sarxe me if I enjoy drinking it. Any thoughts? mu'o mi'e la tsani -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --e89a8fb1f5562f022a04b94add6d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some questions regarding those terms and their implications.

=
For starters, what is the meaning of a kakne where kakne1 doesn't = appear in the kakne2 event?
{i mi kakne lo nu do citka ci lo plis= e} -- "I am capable of you eating three apples?"
kakne-bridi where kakne1 appears in kakne2 seems to be able to resolve= into ka'e-bridi:
{i mi kakne lo nu mi citka ci lo plise} -&g= t; {i mi ka'e citka ci lo plise}
but bridi such as the former= do not seem to posses this quality.

The CLL seems to make all kinds of claims about a parti= cular sumti of ka'e-bridi. For instance, in the ducks example, the CLL = basically says that the bridi is true due to some innate property of ducks,= i.e. that they can all swim. It seems to me like ka'e might have a mor= e useful interpretation if we accept the BPFK CAhA as sumtcita proposal, wh= ere ka'e is equivalent to su'omu'ei. In particular, "there= are some number of worlds, possibly this one, in which [bridi] is true&quo= t;. [ka'e] then becomes the loosest CAhA, where any CAhA can be ka'= e:
ca'a: "in some number of worlds and this one"
= pu'i: "in some number of words and this one"
nu'= ;o: "in some number of worlds excluding this one"
where "this one" is "the world of dei, or of the tagged sumt= i if present"

This doesn't invalidate the "blind people ka&#= 39;e see" sentence, as there exists a world in which they haven't = lost their ability to see.

[ca'a] and [pu'= i] seem redundant, but they simply create an implicit temporal distinction<= /div>

As for mapti and sarxe, it was suggested that a paralle= l exists between those two and ka'e ane kakne, such that mapti is to ka= 'e as sarxe is to kakne.
Concretely, the example is:
mapti: "does the suit fit?" =A0--parallels ka'e
sarxe: "does it look good on you?" =A0--parallels kakne

I don't quite understand this parallel. Does anyone?<= /div>
Returning to the point, mapti seems to be about objective relationship= s and correspondences, such as a suit fitting, or a better word being more = appropriate, whereas sarxe is more about a subjective quality. For instance= , two persons might sarxe if they get along well, or a cup of coffee might = sarxe me if I enjoy drinking it.

Any thoughts?
mu'o mi'e la tsani

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