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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:18:11 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] ka'e/kakne & mapti/sarxe
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On 21 February 2012 12:46, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 6:52 AM, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So {mi kakne lo nu do citka lo plise} (to me) means that I'm able to
>> have you eating an apple. Either because I bought it for you, or
>> because I shoved it down to your throat, or I threatened you that you
>> won't go outside playing with your friends if you don't finish that
>> damned apple.
>
> So basically "mi kakne lo nu do citka lo plise [do'e mi]".
>
>> This seems (to me) the most logical interpretation to assign to {kakne}.
>>
>> If nobody things that my interpretation is acceptable, I will support
>> the interpretation from xorxes.
>
> I don't see our interpretations as being different.
>

But there is a difference here, xorxes. Remember the sentence
  {mi kakne lo nu do citka},
which you would likely interpret as
  {mi kakne lo nu do citka mi},
while Pierre, who believes that kakne1 need not be a part of the clause
in kakne2, even elliptically, would read it as what you write as
  {mi kakne lo nu do citka do'e mi}.

Personally, I think that Pierre's reading is more in line with the grammar.
At the same time, I really wish we used infinitives ({nu} + {ce'u}).
The fact that
  {mi kakne lo nu dansu},
is interpreted by some people as
  "There is dancing if I want.",
thus leaving the sentence open to mean
  "I have a gnome in my house that dances whenever I wish.",
really sucks.


On 21 February 2012 08:28, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> English, Spanish, and Italian all have infinitives and use them in this
> construction, implying that the person who can is the same person who eat=
s an
> apple; but some languages have no infinitive or have quit using it. Moder=
n
> Greek regularly uses "=CE=BD=CE=B1" and a finite verb. So what does "=CE=
=9C=CF=80=CE=BF=CF=81=CF=8E =CE=BD=CE=B1 =CF=86=CE=AC=CE=B3=CE=B7=CF=82 =CE=
=BC=CE=AE=CE=BB=CE=BF"
> mean?

Pierre, can you confirm whether that sentence is usually considered a
grammatical
mistake (like mismatching the case/number of an article with its
nouns') or actually
corresponds to your reading of {mi kakne lo nu do citka lo plise}?

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

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