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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:29:52 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] ka'e/kakne & mapti/sarxe
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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2012/2/21 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>:
> On 21 February 2012 12:46, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 6:52 AM, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>>
>>> If nobody things that my interpretation is acceptable, I will support
>>> the interpretation from xorxes.
>>
>> I don't see our interpretations as being different.
>
> But there is a difference here, xorxes. Remember the sentence
> =A0{mi kakne lo nu do citka},

(which is equivalent to "mi kakne lo nu se citka do")

> which you would likely interpret as
> =A0{mi kakne lo nu do citka mi},
> while Pierre, who believes that kakne1 need not be a part of the clause
> in kakne2, even elliptically, would read it as what you write as
> =A0{mi kakne lo nu do citka do'e mi}.

(You meant remod, not Pierre, right?) I can get that reading too.
That's as general (and vague) as it can get.

> Personally, I think that Pierre's reading is more in line with the gramma=
r.
> At the same time, I really wish we used infinitives ({nu} + {ce'u}).

Some people do use them like that. Personally, I'm undecided, but
since "ce'u" is almost always elided anyway, I don't have much of a
problem with it. It could potentially cause trouble when you have
complex sentences involving both properties and events, for example,
here's one from Alice:

ni'o =ABlu xu do nelci la noltruni'u =97sei la mlatu cu lauble voksa cusku=
=97 li'u=BB
ni'o =ABlu na sai go'i =97sei la .alis. cu cusku=97 .i ny mutce .y li'u=BB =
.i
ca ku .abu sanji lo nu la noltruni'u cu jibni trixe .abu gi'e tirna .i
se ki'u bo di'a cusku =ABlu lo ka lakne fa lo nu ce'u jinga .i se ki'u
bo na vamji lo temci fa lo nu mo'u kelci li'u=BB

> The fact that
> =A0{mi kakne lo nu dansu},
> is interpreted by some people as
> =A0"There is dancing if I want.",

I think almost everybody would interpret it as "mi kakne lo nu
[mi/ce'u] dansu".

> thus leaving the sentence open to mean
> =A0"I have a gnome in my house that dances whenever I wish.",
> really sucks.

But the alternative (forbidding any kind of ellision) sucks even more.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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