Received: from mail-fa0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]:58051)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDU7J76BBoE-bsstw@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1S0xig-0001zE-2I; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:10:12 -0800
Received: by fabs1 with SMTP id s1sf67520fab.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:09:58 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to
         :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=DXGNSO+zcM9CLz9i1u6sKq6ak+chmJDRpzubd0h3kl4=;
        b=fSKnYddA/0Oh3PCQDcfdUncVFykHfbUEm/L3bMUDd2Iv4vW5Zs00cy799w1E4mGJv1
         adGCWZ11Kso5RpBGILAxmaQUrd1eWquhX222Ax3f7X4+7X+J/UnIkutQ7mabuKe3j1uq
         yZd3gslOM3/rdcxj3Iv68X0feLDSNqbIYBA90=
Received: by 10.205.134.14 with SMTP id ia14mr178872bkc.0.1330099796226;
        Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:09:56 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.204.45.87 with SMTP id d23ls3909526bkf.2.gmail; Fri, 24 Feb
 2012 08:09:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.204.150.90 with SMTP id x26mr256361bkv.6.1330099794658;
        Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:09:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.204.150.90 with SMTP id x26mr256360bkv.6.1330099794626;
        Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:09:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-bk0-f45.google.com (mail-bk0-f45.google.com [209.85.214.45])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o5si6110908bkz.0.2012.02.24.08.09.54
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:09:54 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.45;
Received: by mail-bk0-f45.google.com with SMTP id je16so1152367bkc.32
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:09:54 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 10.205.133.17 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.205.133.17;
Received: from mr.google.com ([10.205.133.17])
        by 10.205.133.17 with SMTP id hw17mr1492212bkc.52.1330099794586 (num_hops = 1);
        Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:09:54 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.205.133.17 with SMTP id hw17mr1237176bkc.52.1330099794469;
 Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:09:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.204.60.133 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:09:54 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <201202240849.09497.phma@phma.optus.nu>
References: <8249158.105.1330078848621.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynjn6>
	<201202240849.09497.phma@phma.optus.nu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:09:54 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkQANi4an-9oNZ4B87i6RW=b09vGdCdCMsC4-0GYqqXtPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] An opinion against Lojban/Loglan
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.45 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0ce0d96cc3e2e304b9b7fdd0
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--000e0ce0d96cc3e2e304b9b7fdd0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 8:49 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

> On Friday, February 24, 2012 05:20:48 gleki wrote:
> > This was posted earlier today in the Russian group of lidepla language.
> > The following is written allegedly by Stephen Rice according to the
> author
> > of the group but it's not confirmed by anyone else. Anyway there will be
> no
> > confirmation.
> > What's your opinion about the following ?
> >
> > Briefly: I don't consider either Loglan or Lojban viable auxlangs.
> > They weren't designed for it. Their use of logical predicate
> > structure, while making simple sentences easy to produce, also bloats
> > the lexicon, because you technically need a new predicate every time
> > you change the underlying structure--something regular languages use
> > adpositions to do. Unfortunately, they weren't designed for ease of
> > derivation, either: Loglanists were originally supposed to chain
> > together individual predicate words, much as in Toki Pona. The
> > language was designed for that--it still is, despite some retrofits.
>
> Lojban does have adpositions (sumtcita). All members of BAI are
> prepositions,
> and tense markers can also be used as prepositions.
>
> > From a linguistic standpoint, the relationships differ sharply; as
> > logical predicates, however, their structures are identical. Loglan
> > mitigated this with a system of case tags, which the Lojbanists
> > rejected. My Loglan 2.0 would be based on such a case system.
>
> What does he mean?
>
>
   I assumed here he WAS talking about BAI, but I could be wrong.
                    --gejyspa

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--000e0ce0d96cc3e2e304b9b7fdd0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at=
 8:49 AM, Pierre Abbat <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phma@phma.op=
tus.nu">phma@phma.optus.nu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">On Friday, February 24, 2012 05:20:48 gleki wrote:<br>
&gt; This was posted earlier today in the Russian group of lidepla language=
.<br>
&gt; The following is written allegedly by Stephen Rice according to the au=
thor<br>
&gt; of the group but it&#39;s not confirmed by anyone else. Anyway there w=
ill be no<br>
&gt; confirmation.<br>
&gt; What&#39;s your opinion about the following ?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Briefly: I don&#39;t consider either Loglan or Lojban viable auxlangs.=
<br>
&gt; They weren&#39;t designed for it. Their use of logical predicate<br>
&gt; structure, while making simple sentences easy to produce, also bloats<=
br>
&gt; the lexicon, because you technically need a new predicate every time<b=
r>
&gt; you change the underlying structure--something regular languages use<b=
r>
&gt; adpositions to do. Unfortunately, they weren&#39;t designed for ease o=
f<br>
&gt; derivation, either: Loglanists were originally supposed to chain<br>
&gt; together individual predicate words, much as in Toki Pona. The<br>
&gt; language was designed for that--it still is, despite some retrofits.<b=
r>
<br>
</div>Lojban does have adpositions (sumtcita). All members of BAI are prepo=
sitions,<br>
and tense markers can also be used as prepositions.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; From a linguistic standpoint, the relationships differ sharply; as<br>
&gt; logical predicates, however, their structures are identical. Loglan<br=
>
&gt; mitigated this with a system of case tags, which the Lojbanists<br>
&gt; rejected. My Loglan 2.0 would be based on such a case system.<br>
<br>
</div>What does he mean?<br><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>=A0 =A0I assumed here he WAS talking about BAI, but I =
could be wrong.</div><div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa=
</div><div>=A0</div></div>
</div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--000e0ce0d96cc3e2e304b9b7fdd0--