Received: from mail-we0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]:43313) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1S3UyO-0004kb-0Q; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:04:52 -0800 Received: by wera1 with SMTP id a1sf1868560wer.16 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:04:36 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lojban+bncCKyEuPe6HhCR38P6BBoEwpxFxg@googlegroups.com designates 10.205.136.196 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.205.136.196; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lojban+bncCKyEuPe6HhCR38P6BBoEwpxFxg@googlegroups.com designates 10.205.136.196 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lojban+bncCKyEuPe6HhCR38P6BBoEwpxFxg@googlegroups.com; dkim=pass header.i=lojban+bncCKyEuPe6HhCR38P6BBoEwpxFxg@googlegroups.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.205.136.196]) by 10.205.136.196 with SMTP id il4mr3528958bkc.9.1330704276133 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:04:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ayCzU0sbE4YTSYqAu57u2uBOPM9gjhp1i9DKleOtcws=; b=ZQT299ruKWqwaR7dOEibvAS1oqCjCe8vye6ttW192CzPOgvYi8kgTGOQCSybptYKr3 ZpLnBlKNlPu93kVBYkjDbPGdrOKEIDwO7XDGmQ+PnKCl0fpVSvG2X64l2RchKpGkNVz5 5gbu//q0hbg5yRjBi7JeMsDcWKOARC/Fm0mAM= Received: by 10.205.136.196 with SMTP id il4mr1023935bkc.9.1330704273513; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:04:33 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.50.142 with SMTP id z14ls3703341bkf.3.gmail; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:04:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.205.123.6 with SMTP id gi6mr862696bkc.5.1330704270078; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.205.123.6 with SMTP id gi6mr862695bkc.5.1330704270042; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f50.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f50.google.com [209.85.215.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l17si6666520bkb.1.2012.03.02.08.04.29 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.50; Received: by mail-lpp01m010-f50.google.com with SMTP id m13so2319186lah.9 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 10.112.101.40 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.112.101.40; Received: from mr.google.com ([10.112.101.40]) by 10.112.101.40 with SMTP id fd8mr4653876lbb.17.1330704269911 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:04:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.101.40 with SMTP id fd8mr3797572lbb.17.1330704269677; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.85.98 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:04:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <30903050.276.1330692193136.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynca15> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 17:04:29 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Using Lojban in 'very' defined contexts (eg. maths) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_Fr=F6jd?= To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: so.cool.ogi@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=so.cool.ogi@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0401687f4b968704ba44bbab X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d0401687f4b968704ba44bbab Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I've been studying some psychology and there has been some research in recent years which supports the saphir-whorf hypothesis. For example the fact that chinese children grasp the base-10 position system several years earlier than english-speaking children (approx 5 year instead of 8 year). The cause for this seems to be the chinese numeral systems which is pretty much the same as lojban. To say pareci really is easier than to say onehundred and twentythree, and if you think otherwise it's probably because you has not get used to it yet. mu'omi'e jongausib Den fredagen den 2:e mars 2012 skrev .arpis.: > From my meager experience, the lojban system is nicer than English for > thinking of _numbers_, as long as _quantity_ doesn't matter. That's > okay, though, because any digit based system is poor at expressing > quantity at scale. > > ba zu ju'o cu'i I would like to practice using lojban numbers for a > memory system (inspired by > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_major_system) and practice > using them for arithmetic. > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:46 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >> This has sort of come up before. I agree that bare numerals seem harder to >> use than numbers that mark the value at each place. When I was in the army >> (too few years ago) a man once directed us in physical training exercises >> saying "one five" for 15. I found it irritating. >> What do the accomplished speakers here think? >> >> stevo >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Escape Landsome wrote: >>> >>> This is a good question. >>> >>> I wonder if "pa-ci-re" is an efficient way to say "132". It may be >>> good for a computer, which "understands" the things in a syntactic >>> way, but I would say that humans prefer the semantic-pragmatic way >>> which is found in "one-hundred, three-tens, two-units", (even if tens >>> is said "-ty" and units is implicit), because there's the positional >>> meaning of 1 that means "one hundred" imported in the language. >>> >>> People tend to think pragmatically/semantically, not only along >>> syntax, as, perhaps, Lojban does a little too much ? >>> >>> 2012/3/2, M.Nael : >>> > Would this work? >>> > My native language is Arabic yet I've studied Mathematics since age 3 in >>> > English... Arabic has the disadvantage of having 'too-many syllables' as >>> > opposed to (usually) 1-2 in English. >>> > This is most visible in numbers. Arabic 'One' is 'wa?id' | 'Two' is >>> > 'i0na:n' | 'Three' is '0la:0ah' and so on. >>> > Even with English being more efficient here (and I've grown to use its >>> > number-words in mental calculation), I still find myself saying >>> > 'three-thousand bla-bla-hundred), ...etc. Lojban number-words should >>> > make >>> > up for this, thus: >>> > My question is: how much would training for 'pa-ci-re' instead of >>> > 'one-hundred, thirty-two' etc... be beneficial for my mental >>> > calculations? >>> > And if I decided to extend this to the whole of my mathematical >>> > thinking? >>> > Has anyone tried to use *just* the maths (and generally science-part) of >>> > Lojban? >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> > Groups >>> > "lojban" group. >>> > To view this discussion on the web visit >>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/J2Orr4yu-lUJ. >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> > >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> -- > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --f46d0401687f4b968704ba44bbab Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been studying some psychology and there has been some research in = recent years which supports the saphir-whorf hypothesis. For example the fa= ct that chinese children grasp the base-10 position system several years ea= rlier than english-speaking children (approx 5 year instead of 8 year). The= cause for this seems to be the chinese numeral systems which is pretty muc= h the same as lojban.
To say pareci really is easier than to say onehundred and twentythree, and = if you think otherwise it's probably because you has not get used to it= yet.

mu'omi'e jongausib

Den fredagen den 2:e mars 20= 12 skrev .arpis.<rpglov= er64+jbobau@gmail.com>:
> From my meager experience, the lojban system is nicer than English for=
> thinking of _numbers_, as long as _quantity_ doesn't matter. T= hat's
> okay, though, because any digit based system is poor at e= xpressing
> quantity at scale.
>
> ba zu ju'o cu'i I would lik= e to practice using lojban numbers for a
> memory system (inspired by=
> ht= tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_major_system) and practice
> using them for arithmetic.
>
> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:46= AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.= com> wrote:
>> This has sort of come up before. I agree tha= t bare numerals seem harder to
>> use than numbers that mark the value at each place. When I was in = the army
>> (too few years ago) a man once directed us in physical= training exercises
>> saying "one five" for 15. I found= it irritating.
>> What do the accomplished speakers here think?
>>
>&= gt; stevo
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:58 A= M, Escape Landsome <escaaape@gmail= .com> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is a good question.
>>>
&g= t;>> I wonder if "pa-ci-re" is an efficient way to say &quo= t;132". =A0 It may be
>>> good for a computer, which "= ;understands" the things in a syntactic
>>> way, but I would say that humans prefer the semantic-pragmatic= way
>>> which is found in "one-hundred, three-tens, two-u= nits", (even if tens
>>> is said "-ty" and units= is implicit), because there's the positional
>>> meaning of 1 that means "one hundred" imported in th= e language.
>>>
>>> People tend to think pragmatica= lly/semantically, not only along
>>> syntax, as, perhaps, Lojba= n does a little too much ?
>>>
>>> 2012/3/2, M.Nael <muhammad.nael@gmail.com>:
>>> > Wou= ld this work?
>>> > My native language is Arabic yet I'v= e studied Mathematics since age 3 in
>>> > English... Arabic has the disadvantage of having 'too= -many syllables' as
>>> > opposed to (usually) 1-2 in En= glish.
>>> > This is most visible in numbers. Arabic 'On= e' is 'wa?id' | 'Two' is
>>> > 'i0na:n' | 'Three' is '0la:0ah' a= nd so on.
>>> > Even with English being more efficient here = (and I've grown to use its
>>> > number-words in mental = calculation), I still find myself saying
>>> > 'three-thousand bla-bla-hundred), ...etc. Lojban numb= er-words should
>>> > make
>>> > up for this,= thus:
>>> > My question is: how much would training for = 9;pa-ci-re' instead of
>>> > 'one-hundred, thirty-two' etc... be beneficial fo= r my mental
>>> > calculations?
>>> > And if = I decided to extend this to the whole of my mathematical
>>> &g= t; thinking?
>>> > Has anyone tried to use *just* the maths (and generally s= cience-part) of
>>> > Lojban?
>>> >
>&g= t;> > --
>>> > You received this message because you a= re subscribed to the Google
>>> > Groups
>>> > "lojban" group.
= >>> > To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> = > http= s://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/J2Orr4yu-lUJ.
>>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>>> > To= unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegro= ups.com.
>>> > For more options, visit this group at
>>> >= ; http://groups.g= oogle.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>> >
>>> &g= t;
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message b= ecause you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "lojban= " group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> = lojban+unsubscribe= @googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group a= t
>>> http= ://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>>
>><= br>>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscr= ibed to the Google Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send = email to lojban@googlegroups.com= .
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>= --
> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>
> --
> You received this= message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban"= group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--f46d0401687f4b968704ba44bbab--