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From: Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Homonyms in Stage 3 fu'ivla
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 21:40:27 -0500
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On Friday, March 02, 2012 23:35:53 guskant wrote:
> ki'e la'oi Pierre
> 
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 26, 2012 20:41:18 guskant wrote:
> >> coi
> >> 
> >> The algorithm of making a non-Lojban word into a valid Stage 3 fu'ivla
> >> may produce homonyms.
> >> For example, a Mexican may produce "djartako" from taco, while a
> >> Japanese may produce "djartako" from octopus dish.
> >> Is there algorithm to select one of them?
> > 
> > "djartako" is a type-4, you mean "cidjrtako",
> 
> I simply used the term "Stage 3" used in the CLL 4.7:
> "The rafsi categorizes or limits the meaning of the fu'ivla [...].
> Such a Stage 3 borrowing is the most common kind of fu'ivla."
> "Stage 4 fu'ivla do not have any rafsi classifier, and are used where
> a fu'ivla has become so common or so important that it must be made as
> short as possible."
> I don't know another classification method.

We decided (I'm not sure when; it may have been before I became a Lojbanist) 
that a Stage 3 fu'ivla has to use a rafsi ending in a consonant. Also, if you 
make a stage-4 fu'ivla but it has the form of a stage-3, you have to change 
it. I've run into this once: "turndun", an Australian Aboriginal word for a 
bullroarer, turned into "turndunu", but that's a type-3 word for some kind of 
structure, so I changed it to "turdunu".

> On the other hand, it seems that homonyms from different languages
> cannot be managed with reasonable rules. However, "fu'ivla (like other
> brivla) are not permitted to have more than one definition. (CLL 4.7)"
> 
> According to CLL 4.7, "Stage 3 fu'ivla can be made easily on the fly,
> as lujvo can, because the procedure for forming them always guarantees
> a word that cannot violate any of the rules." This statement is not
> true for "djartako".
> 
> "Stage 4 fu'ivla require running tests that are not simple to
> characterize or perform, and should be made only after deliberation
> and by someone knowledgeable about all the considerations that apply.
> (CLL 4.7)" Yes, and because of "djartako", running tests must be
> applied also to Stage 3 fu'ivla.

I think you've found a bug in the Book, and it should be fixed in the next 
edition. I'm not sure how to fix it, though. The bug I found in the fu'irvlazba 
rules (ler(fu) + djamo (a Korean word for a letter that's a component of a 
syllable) = lerndjamo by the rule as it then stood) was easy to fix (in this 
case the interfix must be -l-, thus lerldjamo).

> > There
> > isn't, and can't be, an algorithm to decide this. There can be a protocol
> > (the multiparty equivalent of an algorithm).
> 
> Which protocol can be there?

I don't know, but it could involve a Japanese Lojbanist talking with a Mexican 
Lojbanist.

Pierre
-- 
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

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