On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:01 PM, vruxir <kextrii@gmail.com>= ; wrote:

...I would assume, by my understanding of tanru where the first elemen= t modifies the second, that the most basic definitions of me'ispe and b= unspe are:

lujvo are not tanru. lujvo are define= d words, said definition determined by the creator, and do not necessarily = have anything to do with the meaning of any tanru.
=A0

= lo me'ispe: sister kind-of spouse -> sister's spouse (gender not= specified, so not necessarily brother- or sister-in-law)

(shorthand for lo speni be lo mensi)

a &quo= t;sister kind-of spouse" is a spouse who is a sister, not a sister of = a spouse.

By my definition, {zo me'ispe smuni lu ko'a mensi = ko'e lonu speni lu} =3D "x1 is the sister of x2 by the bond of mar= riage; x1 is x2's sister-in-law", where {lonu speni} is short for = {ko'a goi lo ninmu .onai lo ko'a tunba cu speni lo ko'e tunba .= onai ko'e .ije ko'a na speni ko'e}

lo bun= spe: brother kind-of spouse -> brother's spouse (gender not specifie= d,=A0so not necessarily brother- or sister-in-law)

(shorthand for lo speni be lo bruna)

See above.
=A0

And then:

lo speme&= #39;i: spouse kind-of sister -> spouse's sister (one kind of sister-= in-law)
(shorthand for lo mensi be lo speni)

lo spebu'a: spouse kind-of brother -> spouse's brother (one= kind of brother-in-law)
(shorthand for lo bruna be lo speni)

I do think the current me'ispe and= bunspe definitions are misleading in their use of gendered terms, using En= glish terms with complex and ambiguous meanings.

In English, an in-law is someone who is related to a = person because of the in-law's family is married to someone of the othe= r person's family. The exact relationship to the person is the same rel= ationship they have to the married member of their own family plus "in= -law", with the single exception that the married couple are not sibli= ngs-in-law to each other.

The difference between a sister by birth and a sister by marriage (and = by extension, all birth vs. in-law relationships) is the bond. For example,= A is a sister-by-birth to C, B is a sister-by-marriage:

.abu mensi = cy. lodu'u ra .e ri mintu se rirni
by. mensi cy. lodu'u lo by. se lanzu cu speni lo cy. se lanzu
=A0

If the definition= is looking for search hits, then:

Searching for "brother-in-law" should bring u= p me'ispe, bunspe, spebu'a and terspebu'a
Searching f= or "sister-in-law" should bring up me'ispe, bunspe, speme'= ;i and terspeme'i

Searching for "in-law" should bring up... lots of things.

mu'o

On Monday, March 5, 2012 3:30:58 AM UTC-= 5, aionys wrote:

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:32 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

On Sunday, March 04, 2012 23:48:44 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> Why is bunspe defined as sister-in-law and me'ispe is brother-in-l= aw?
> That's completely backwards.
>
> Specifically, brother-in-law (me'ispe) is defined as "x1 is t= he spouse of
> the sister of x2 under law/custom/etc. x3"
> and sister-in-law (bunspe) is defined as "x1 is the spouse of the= brother
> of x2 under law/custom/etc. x3"
>
> What if the spouse of the sister is a woman? Or the spouse of the brot= her a
> man? What about the sister or brother of the spouse?

If the spouse of the sister is a woman, she is sister-in-law and me&#= 39;ispe.
Conversely if the spouse of the brother is a man. The sibling of the spouse= cu
spebruna ja spemensi. Whoever wrote the def wasn't thinking that two wo= men
could be married to each other.

The problem is tha= t it is the gender of the married person that is taken into account, not th= e gender of the person being spoken of. Whether I am a brother-in-law or a = sister-in-law has nothing to do with the gender of my married sibling.

Also, why does it matter which of the two is the married one? If Man1 m= arries Woman1 who has a brother Man2, Man2 is Man1's brother-in-law, an= d Man1 is Man2's brother-in-law. If Man1 also has a biological or adopt= ed brother Man3, then Man2 and Man3 are also each other's brothers-in-l= aw, even if neither of them are married.

If any sibling from family A marries any sibling from family B, then ev= ery sibling in family A is a sibling-in-law to every sibling in family B, e= xcept for the two who are married, as they are spouses, not siblings-in-law= .

> By the current definitions, a woman who is married to a woman wit= h a sister
> is a brother-in-law, and a woman married to someone with a sister has = no
> lujvo. It also doesn't work for the relationship between a sibling= of one
> spouse and a sibling of the other spouse.

A brother of one spouse cu me'irspebu'a a brother of the othe= r spouse.

Pierre
--
lo ponse be lo mruli po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko

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