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Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:56:00 -0800 (PST)
From: vruxir <kextrii@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] What's the deal with me'ispe and bunspe?
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On Monday, March 5, 2012 3:09:52 PM UTC-5, aionys wrote:
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:01 PM, vruxir wrote:
>
>> ...I would assume, by my understanding of tanru where the first element 
>> modifies the second, that the most basic definitions of me'ispe and bunspe 
>> are:
>>
>
> lujvo are not tanru. lujvo are defined words, said definition determined 
> by the creator, and do not necessarily have anything to do with the meaning 
> of any tanru. 
>
 
That's correct. However, a lujvo is a compact way to express a useful 
relationship, and there's only room for one (or very few) lujvo combining a 
particular set of terms. So it makes sense that if the lujvo is created 
suboptimally without forethought, it can be changed by consensus, as you 
proposed. Except we disagree on what modification should be made.
 

> lo me'ispe: sister kind-of spouse -> sister's spouse (gender not 
>> specified, so not necessarily brother- or sister-in-law)
>> (shorthand for lo speni be lo mensi)
>>
>
> a "sister kind-of spouse" is a spouse who is a sister, not a sister of a 
> spouse.
>

I concede that, as a basic definition of "sister kind-of 
spouse", incestuous marriage is just as conceivable as 
spouse-associated-with-a-sister. Which meaning would be more frequently 
referred to in typical conversation, I wonder.
 

> By my definition, {zo me'ispe smuni lu ko'a mensi ko'e lonu speni lu} = 
> "x1 is the sister of x2 by the bond of marriage; x1 is x2's sister-in-law"
>
>
But it still looks to me like a lujvo relatable to a reversed tanru, where 
the second element, "speni", is modifying the first element, "mensi"; i.e. 
mensi co speni "sister of-type spouse"

Like you said, the lujvo doesn't have to resemble any particular tanru, but 
it would be easier to understand and remember if the ordering didn't seem 
backwards.


mu'o

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On Monday, March 5, 2012 3:09:52 PM UTC-5, aionys wrote:<blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 =
at 12:01 PM, vruxir wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>...I would assume, by my understanding of tanru where the first elemen=
t modifies the second, that the most basic definitions of me'ispe and bunsp=
e are:</div></blockquote><div><br>lujvo are not tanru. lujvo are defined wo=
rds, said definition determined by the creator, and do not necessarily have=
 anything to do with the meaning of any tanru. <br>
</div></div></blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><div>That's correct. However, a l=
ujvo is a compact way to express a useful relationship, and there's only ro=
om for one (or very few) lujvo combining a particular set of terms. So it m=
akes sense that if the lujvo is created suboptimally without forethought, i=
t can be changed by consensus, as you proposed. Except we disagree on what =
modification should be made.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div></div><div>lo me'ispe: sister kind-of spouse -&=
gt; sister's spouse (gender not specified, so not necessarily brother- or s=
ister-in-law)</div>
<div>(shorthand for lo speni be lo mensi)</div></blockquote><div><br>a "sis=
ter kind-of spouse" is a spouse who is a sister, not a sister of a spouse.<=
br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I concede that,&nbsp;as a b=
asic definition of "sister kind-of spouse",&nbsp;incestuous marriage is jus=
t as conceivable as spouse-associated-with-a-sister.&nbsp;Which meaning wou=
ld be more frequently referred to in typical conversation, I wonder.</div><=
div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin=
-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div>By my definition, {zo me'ispe smuni lu ko'a mensi ko'e lo=
nu speni lu} =3D "x1 is the sister of x2 by the bond of marriage; x1 is x2'=
s sister-in-law"<br><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But it=
 still looks to me like a lujvo relatable to a reversed tanru, where the se=
cond element, "speni", is modifying the first element, "mensi"; i.e. mensi =
co speni "sister of-type spouse"<br></div><div><br></div><div>Like you said=
, the lujvo doesn't have to resemble any particular tanru, but it would be =
easier to understand and remember if the ordering didn't seem backwards.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>mu'o</div>

<p></p>

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