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Subject: Re: [lojban] What's the deal with me'ispe and bunspe?
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On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 1:56 PM, vruxir <kextrii@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, March 5, 2012 3:09:52 PM UTC-5, aionys wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:01 PM, vruxir wrote:
>>
>>> ...I would assume, by my understanding of tanru where the first element
>>> modifies the second, that the most basic definitions of me'ispe and bunspe
>>> are:
>>>
>>
>> lujvo are not tanru. lujvo are defined words, said definition determined
>> by the creator, and do not necessarily have anything to do with the meaning
>> of any tanru.
>>
>
> That's correct. However, a lujvo is a compact way to express a useful
> relationship, and there's only room for one (or very few) lujvo combining a
> particular set of terms. So it makes sense that if the lujvo is created
> suboptimally without forethought, it can be changed by consensus, as you
> proposed. Except we disagree on what modification should be made.
>
>
>> lo me'ispe: sister kind-of spouse -> sister's spouse (gender not
>>> specified, so not necessarily brother- or sister-in-law)
>>> (shorthand for lo speni be lo mensi)
>>>
>>
>> a "sister kind-of spouse" is a spouse who is a sister, not a sister of a
>> spouse.
>>
>
> I concede that, as a basic definition of "sister kind-of
> spouse", incestuous marriage is just as conceivable as
> spouse-associated-with-a-sister. Which meaning would be more frequently
> referred to in typical conversation, I wonder.
>
>
>> By my definition, {zo me'ispe smuni lu ko'a mensi ko'e lonu speni lu} =
>> "x1 is the sister of x2 by the bond of marriage; x1 is x2's sister-in-law"
>>
>>
> But it still looks to me like a lujvo relatable to a reversed tanru, where
> the second element, "speni", is modifying the first element, "mensi"; i.e.
> mensi co speni "sister of-type spouse"
>
> Like you said, the lujvo doesn't have to resemble any particular tanru,
> but it would be easier to understand and remember if the ordering didn't
> seem backwards.
>
>
> mu'o
>

I wouldn't consider {speni mensi} or {mensi speni} to be a sister-in-law,
but I would consider them equivalent. In a tanru. the x1 (but not
necessarily the other places) has to fit the x1 of both the seltau and the
tertau. In this case, that means that both {lo speni mensi} and {lo mensi
speni} must be both {lo mensi} and {lo speni}, i.e. a married sister, a
sister who is also a wife.

By the current definition, {lo me'ispe cu speni lo mensi be lo se speni}:
"x1 is married to the sister of x2", {lo bunspe cu speni lo bruna be lo se
speni}, "x1 is married to the brother of x2".

As you can see, the current definition isn't based on a tanru either.

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 1:56 PM, vruxir <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kextrii@gmail.com">kextrii@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Monday, March 5, 2012 3:09:52 PM UTC-5, aionys wrote:<div class=3D"im"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, M=
ar 5, 2012 at 12:01 PM, vruxir wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>...I would assume, by my understanding of tanru where the first elemen=
t modifies the second, that the most basic definitions of me&#39;ispe and b=
unspe are:</div></blockquote><div><br>lujvo are not tanru. lujvo are define=
d words, said definition determined by the creator, and do not necessarily =
have anything to do with the meaning of any tanru. <br>

</div></div></blockquote><div>=A0</div></div><div>That&#39;s correct. Howev=
er, a lujvo is a compact way to express a useful relationship, and there&#3=
9;s only room for one (or very few) lujvo combining a particular set of ter=
ms. So it makes sense that if the lujvo is created suboptimally without for=
ethought, it can be changed by consensus, as you proposed. Except we disagr=
ee on what modification should be made.</div>
<div class=3D"im"><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div></div><div>lo me&#39;ispe: sister kind-of spouse -&gt; sister&#39;s sp=
ouse (gender not specified, so not necessarily brother- or sister-in-law)</=
div>
<div>(shorthand for lo speni be lo mensi)</div></blockquote><div><br>a &quo=
t;sister kind-of spouse&quot; is a spouse who is a sister, not a sister of =
a spouse.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I concede t=
hat,=A0as a basic definition of &quot;sister kind-of spouse&quot;,=A0incest=
uous marriage is just as conceivable as spouse-associated-with-a-sister.=A0=
Which meaning would be more frequently referred to in typical conversation,=
 I wonder.</div>
<div class=3D"im"><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>By my definition, {zo me&#39;ispe smuni lu ko&=
#39;a mensi ko&#39;e lonu speni lu} =3D &quot;x1 is the sister of x2 by the=
 bond of marriage; x1 is x2&#39;s sister-in-law&quot;<br>
<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>But it still looks t=
o me like a lujvo relatable to a reversed tanru, where the second element, =
&quot;speni&quot;, is modifying the first element, &quot;mensi&quot;; i.e. =
mensi co speni &quot;sister of-type spouse&quot;<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>Like you said, the lujvo doesn&#39;t have to rese=
mble any particular tanru, but it would be easier to understand and remembe=
r if the ordering didn&#39;t seem backwards.</div><div><br></div><div><br>
</div><div>mu&#39;o</div></blockquote></div><br>I wouldn&#39;t consider {sp=
eni mensi} or {mensi speni} to be a sister-in-law, but I would consider the=
m equivalent. In a tanru. the x1 (but not necessarily the other places) has=
 to fit the x1 of both the seltau and the tertau. In this case, that means =
that both {lo speni mensi} and {lo mensi speni} must be both {lo mensi} and=
 {lo speni}, i.e. a married sister, a sister who is also a wife.<br>
<br>By the current definition, {lo me&#39;ispe cu speni lo mensi be lo se s=
peni}: &quot;x1 is married to the sister of x2&quot;, {lo bunspe cu speni l=
o bruna be lo se speni}, &quot;x1 is married to the brother of x2&quot;.<br=
>
<br>As you can see, the current definition isn&#39;t based on a tanru eithe=
r.<br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;u=
cai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come=
 to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>
<br>

<p></p>

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