Received: from mail-we0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]:61569)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCK09X6BBoEfQyNtw@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1S4jI6-0001dM-44; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:34:20 -0800
Received: by wera1 with SMTP id a1sf4754051wer.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:34:06 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCK09X6BBoEfQyNtw@googlegroups.com designates 10.205.132.65 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.205.132.65;
Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCK09X6BBoEfQyNtw@googlegroups.com designates 10.205.132.65 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCK09X6BBoEfQyNtw@googlegroups.com; dkim=pass header.i=lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCK09X6BBoEfQyNtw@googlegroups.com
Received: from mr.google.com ([10.205.132.65])
        by 10.205.132.65 with SMTP id ht1mr6389144bkc.29.1330997646587 (num_hops = 1);
        Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:34:06 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to
         :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=Q4eSbS9rH0pQ3/9vweOtH79D94Wqhh/HNdLnT3rJsjY=;
        b=4piUco/DB0Doy8E+oZUmRn7SGzV9hSF8NzfQ7ZbvK2HtiN+owpOXbVDlMVRlr+TNGt
         REdX2buii9x23ujNJ1cGSxn2oiyLdJex4lCqZ0LyNqeOERhzVA4R0J4QE348zEZJLH5H
         WMOTGj7UKwxD0vngNJMZ3+1Xx/WcKIktG5sz4=
Received: by 10.205.132.65 with SMTP id ht1mr1894689bkc.29.1330997642616;
        Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:34:02 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.204.143.211 with SMTP id w19ls220bku.9.gmail; Mon, 05 Mar 2012
 17:34:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.204.131.75 with SMTP id w11mr1777523bks.0.1330997641590;
        Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:34:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.204.131.75 with SMTP id w11mr1777522bks.0.1330997641540;
        Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:34:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f48.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f48.google.com [209.85.215.48])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l17si19921656bkb.1.2012.03.05.17.34.01
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:34:01 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.48;
Received: by mail-lpp01m010-f48.google.com with SMTP id u2so7066856lag.35
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:34:01 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 10.112.86.198 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.112.86.198;
Received: from mr.google.com ([10.112.86.198])
        by 10.112.86.198 with SMTP id r6mr10711971lbz.53.1330997641432 (num_hops = 1);
        Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:34:01 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.112.86.198 with SMTP id r6mr8784526lbz.53.1330997641359; Mon,
 05 Mar 2012 17:34:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.152.148.225 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 17:34:01 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <26825034.2813.1330995206153.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbas10>
References: <CAMKwHj2h=zOYueZQYN4R9rSJ=FHzUstJaaK4FpxBo69D1sxzxw@mail.gmail.com>
	<201203050232.47562.phma@phma.optus.nu>
	<CAMKwHj1ejWNxHXt=kaAC1kJVTukf1h+7ZVh0_iATsQ1mYvawBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7853015.1110.1330974066635.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbze11>
	<CAMKwHj26PUjB01FK_9g-LbU3=bFwS8KOw0zoCWjJKfrL2kjbvA@mail.gmail.com>
	<22733730.2112.1330980960085.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynlt17>
	<CAMKwHj1X_hBXjULuZPLQR+=fimA6iefOq+sSN4pXwYyMKtQj4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<26825034.2813.1330995206153.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbas10>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 18:34:01 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj2zossaRQWUQa2nY9SNQYE-tV0aWRui++voeZchGUp-4A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] What's the deal with me'ispe and bunspe?
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.48 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec554d6dc9c331204ba8909f6
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--bcaec554d6dc9c331204ba8909f6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 5:53 PM, vruxir <kextrii@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>>> In a tanru. the x1 (but not necessarily the other places) has to fit th=
e
>> x1 of both the seltau and the tertau. In this case, that means that both
>> {lo speni mensi} and {lo mensi speni} must be both {lo mensi} and {lo
>> speni}, i.e. a married sister, a sister who is also a wife.
>>
>>
> If the x1 had to fit the x1 of both the seltau and the tertau, then "lo
> nixli ckule" would be both a girl and a school, and "lo pelnimre tricu"
> would be both a lemon and a tree.
>
> http://dag.github.com/cll/5/2/
>
> "The most important rule for use in interpreting tanru is that the tertau
> carries the primary meaning. A =93pelnimre tricu=94 is primarily a tree, =
and
> only secondarily is it connected with lemons in some way."
>
>
> Am I missing a revised rule about tanru? What's your source?
>

I don't remember, honestly. It might've been the LfB, but whatever it is,
it is apparently wrong and therefore inconsequential.

>
>
>> By the current definition, {lo me'ispe cu speni lo mensi be lo se speni}=
:
>> "x1 is married to the sister of x2", {lo bunspe cu speni lo bruna be lo =
se
>> speni}, "x1 is married to the brother of x2".
>>
>> As you can see, the current definition isn't based on a tanru either.
>>
>>
> Right. The current lujvo definition narrows the meaning past what would b=
e
> implied by mensi speni / bruna speni, but it is consistent with the tanru
> (not that it has to be) in making "speni" the primary meaning.
>
> mu'o
>
> I see your point. The reason behind {me'ispe} vs. {speme'i} is twofold:
One, {me'ispe} is already {poorly} defined, so it makes sense to me at
least to rewrite the definition rather than create a new word that actually
means what the current definition is intended to mean, and two, {me'ispe}
is similar to {fetspe}. In the same way that the rafsi of te irks us (as
opposed to the rafsi of se, ve, and xe), I consider {speme'i} to be irksome=
.

--=20
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.


--bcaec554d6dc9c331204ba8909f6
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 5:53 PM, vruxir <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kextrii@gmail.com">kextrii@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margi=
n-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px=
;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)=
;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br></blockquote>In a tanru. the x1 (but not necessarily the other places) =
has to fit the x1 of both the seltau and the tertau. In this case, that mea=
ns that both {lo speni mensi} and {lo mensi speni} must be both {lo mensi} =
and {lo speni}, i.e. a married sister, a sister who is also a wife.<br>

<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>If the x1 had to fit the x1 of b=
oth the seltau and the tertau, then &quot;lo nixli ckule&quot; would be bot=
h a girl and a school, and &quot;lo pelnimre tricu&quot; would be both a le=
mon and a tree.</div>
<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"http://dag.github.com/cll/5/2/" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://dag.github.com/cll/5/2/</a><br></div><div><br></div><blockquot=
e style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div>&quot;The most i=
mportant rule for use in interpreting tanru is that the tertau carries the =
primary meaning. A =93pelnimre tricu=94 is primarily a tree, and only secon=
darily is it connected with lemons in some way.&quot;</div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Am I missing a revised rule about tanru? W=
hat&#39;s your source?</div></blockquote><div><br>I don&#39;t remember, hon=
estly. It might&#39;ve been the LfB, but whatever it is, it is apparently w=
rong and therefore inconsequential. <br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><=
div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-lef=
t:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
By the current definition, {lo me&#39;ispe cu speni lo mensi be lo se speni=
}: &quot;x1 is married to the sister of x2&quot;, {lo bunspe cu speni lo br=
una be lo se speni}, &quot;x1 is married to the brother of x2&quot;.<br>

<br>As you can see, the current definition isn&#39;t based on a tanru eithe=
r.<br clear=3D"all"><br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Right. The c=
urrent lujvo definition narrows the meaning past what would be implied by m=
ensi speni / bruna speni, but it is consistent with the tanru (not that it =
has to be) in making &quot;speni&quot; the primary meaning.</div>
<div class=3D"im"><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o</div>

<p></p>

</div></blockquote></div>I see your point. The reason behind {me&#39;ispe} =
vs. {speme&#39;i} is twofold: One, {me&#39;ispe} is already {poorly} define=
d, so it makes sense to me at least to rewrite the definition rather than c=
reate a new word that actually means what the current definition is intende=
d to mean, and two, {me&#39;ispe} is similar to {fetspe}. In the same way t=
hat the rafsi of te irks us (as opposed to the rafsi of se, ve, and xe), I =
consider {speme&#39;i} to be irksome.<br>
<br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo piln=
o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Lu=
ke, I am your father. :D )<br><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--bcaec554d6dc9c331204ba8909f6--