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On Wednesday, March 7, 2012 5:30:20 AM UTC+4, Mark wrote:
>
> Hanzi for Lojban is an excellent notion (has it already been=20
> entertained?) Hanzi are probably better-suited to Lojban than the Latin=
=20
> alphabet is, and possibly better-suited to Lojban than they are to=20
> Chinese. A fixed, *closed* number of roots, each representable by a=20
> single figure, none needing to be related to the others... Sounds good=20
> to me.
>
> Each gismu should have a single official graph, as close as possible in=
=20
> meaning. It will never be perfect, but the mapping of sounds to Latin=20
> letters isn't perfect either, to an English-speaker. Rafsi use exactly=20
> the same graph, as you propose, except they're linked together to make=20
> lujvo. It's reminiscent of the distinct on/kun readings in Japanese,=20
> where they have different pronunciations if they're in compound or other=
=20
> environments. I don't like your ^ because it separates as much as joins,=
=20
> and since there won't be spaces between the graphs in general (or will=20
> there?) you wind up with lujvo-elements that are more visually separated=
=20
> than adjacent words. Something like a COMBINING DOUBLE INVERTED BREVE or=
=20
> COMBINING DOUBLE BREVE BELOW would be nice, though I'm not sure applying=
=20
> such non-Han diacritics to Han characters doesn't qualify as an unholy=20
> abomination. Something small, some little separator that joins more than=
=20
> it separates... Maybe something like =CB=8CMODIFIER LETTER LOW VERTICAL L=
INE=20
> or =CB=88MODIFIER LETTER VERTICAL LINE, squeezed between the rafsi-graphs=
?
>
> Presumably specific graphs for the cmavo as well. There we lose the=20
> cmavo/brivla distinction that the Latin writing system gives, with the=20
> consonant clusters. (what might be cool is to take the cmavo-graphs from=
=20
> katana/hiragana, which are visually distinct from the Han graphs, but=20
> then you'd wind up straying pretty far from pronunciation and meaning).
>
> And yes, some kludgy whatever for cmene and fu'ivla (these also suffer,=
=20
> by never being able to reduce the markedness of being written all funny).
>
> ~mark
>
>
On Wednesday, March 7, 2012 5:30:20 AM UTC+4, Mark wrote:
>
> Hanzi for Lojban is an excellent notion (has it already been=20
> entertained?) Hanzi are probably better-suited to Lojban than the Latin=
=20
> alphabet is, and possibly better-suited to Lojban than they are to=20
> Chinese. A fixed, *closed* number of roots, each representable by a=20
> single figure, none needing to be related to the others... Sounds good=20
> to me.
>
> Each gismu should have a single official graph, as close as possible in=
=20
> meaning. It will never be perfect, but the mapping of sounds to Latin=20
> letters isn't perfect either, to an English-speaker. Rafsi use exactly=20
> the same graph, as you propose, except they're linked together to make=20
> lujvo. It's reminiscent of the distinct on/kun readings in Japanese,=20
> where they have different pronunciations if they're in compound or other=
=20
> environments. I don't like your ^ because it separates as much as joins,=
=20
> and since there won't be spaces between the graphs in general (or will=20
> there?) you wind up with lujvo-elements that are more visually separated=
=20
> than adjacent words. Something like a COMBINING DOUBLE INVERTED BREVE or=
=20
> COMBINING DOUBLE BREVE BELOW would be nice, though I'm not sure applying=
=20
> such non-Han diacritics to Han characters doesn't qualify as an unholy=20
> abomination. Something small, some little separator that joins more than=
=20
> it separates... Maybe something like =CB=8CMODIFIER LETTER LOW VERTICAL L=
INE=20
> or =CB=88MODIFIER LETTER VERTICAL LINE, squeezed between the rafsi-graphs=
?
>
> Presumably specific graphs for the cmavo as well. There we lose the=20
> cmavo/brivla distinction that the Latin writing system gives, with the=20
> consonant clusters. (what might be cool is to take the cmavo-graphs from=
=20
> katana/hiragana, which are visually distinct from the Han graphs, but=20
> then you'd wind up straying pretty far from pronunciation and meaning).
>
> =20

> And yes, some kludgy whatever for cmene and fu'ivla (these also suffer,=
=20
> by never being able to reduce the markedness of being written all funny).
>
This poses a more general thoughts on whether fu'ivla are really needed in=
=20
Lojban.
in many cases they can be readily replace with cmene or lujvo. I just find=
=20
the similar solution  in Chinese itself.
compare
latcribe =3D cionmau
(cionmau is from Shiong Mao which literally means "latcribe")
=20

> ~mark
>
>

--=20
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jban/-/sKcRJg5T8MoJ.
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?hl=3Den.


------=_Part_296_19793851.1331118725182
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>On Wednesday, March 7, 2012 5:30:20 AM UTC+4, Mark wrote:<blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: =
1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Hanzi for Lojban is an excellent notion =
(has it already been <br>entertained?) Hanzi are probably better-suited to =
Lojban than the Latin <br>alphabet is, and possibly better-suited to Lojban=
 than they are to <br>Chinese. A fixed, *closed* number of roots, each repr=
esentable by a <br>single figure, none needing to be related to the others.=
.. Sounds good <br>to me.<p>Each gismu should have a single official graph,=
 as close as possible in <br>meaning. It will never be perfect, but the map=
ping of sounds to Latin <br>letters isn't perfect either, to an English-spe=
aker. Rafsi use exactly <br>the same graph, as you propose, except they're =
linked together to make <br>lujvo. It's reminiscent of the distinct on/kun =
readings in Japanese, <br>where they have different pronunciations if they'=
re in compound or other <br>environments. I don't like your ^ because it se=
parates as much as joins, <br>and since there won't be spaces between the g=
raphs in general (or will <br>there?) you wind up with lujvo-elements that =
are more visually separated <br>than adjacent words. Something like a COMBI=
NING DOUBLE INVERTED BREVE or <br>COMBINING DOUBLE BREVE BELOW would be nic=
e, though I'm not sure applying <br>such non-Han diacritics to Han characte=
rs doesn't qualify as an unholy <br>abomination. Something small, some litt=
le separator that joins more than <br>it separates... Maybe something like =
=CB=8CMODIFIER LETTER LOW VERTICAL LINE <br>or =CB=88MODIFIER LETTER VERTIC=
AL LINE, squeezed between the rafsi-graphs?</p><p>Presumably specific graph=
s for the cmavo as well. There we lose the <br>cmavo/brivla distinction tha=
t the Latin writing system gives, with the <br>consonant clusters. (what mi=
ght be cool is to take the cmavo-graphs from <br>katana/hiragana, which are=
 visually distinct from the Han graphs, but <br>then you'd wind up straying=
 pretty far from pronunciation and meaning).</p><p>And yes, some kludgy wha=
tever for cmene and fu'ivla (these also suffer, <br>by never being able to =
reduce the markedness of being written all funny).</p><p>~mark<br></p><p></=
p><p></p><p></p></blockquote><br>On Wednesday, March 7, 2012 5:30:20 AM UTC=
+4, Mark wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-=
left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Hanzi for Lojba=
n is an excellent notion (has it already been <br>entertained?) Hanzi are p=
robably better-suited to Lojban than the Latin <br>alphabet is, and possibl=
y better-suited to Lojban than they are to <br>Chinese. A fixed, *closed* n=
umber of roots, each representable by a <br>single figure, none needing to =
be related to the others... Sounds good <br>to me.<p>Each gismu should have=
 a single official graph, as close as possible in <br>meaning. It will neve=
r be perfect, but the mapping of sounds to Latin <br>letters isn't perfect =
either, to an English-speaker. Rafsi use exactly <br>the same graph, as you=
 propose, except they're linked together to make <br>lujvo. It's reminiscen=
t of the distinct on/kun readings in Japanese, <br>where they have differen=
t pronunciations if they're in compound or other <br>environments. I don't =
like your ^ because it separates as much as joins, <br>and since there won'=
t be spaces between the graphs in general (or will <br>there?) you wind up =
with lujvo-elements that are more visually separated <br>than adjacent word=
s. Something like a COMBINING DOUBLE INVERTED BREVE or <br>COMBINING DOUBLE=
 BREVE BELOW would be nice, though I'm not sure applying <br>such non-Han d=
iacritics to Han characters doesn't qualify as an unholy <br>abomination. S=
omething small, some little separator that joins more than <br>it separates=
... Maybe something like =CB=8CMODIFIER LETTER LOW VERTICAL LINE <br>or =CB=
=88MODIFIER LETTER VERTICAL LINE, squeezed between the rafsi-graphs?</p><p>=
Presumably specific graphs for the cmavo as well. There we lose the <br>cma=
vo/brivla distinction that the Latin writing system gives, with the <br>con=
sonant clusters. (what might be cool is to take the cmavo-graphs from <br>k=
atana/hiragana, which are visually distinct from the Han graphs, but <br>th=
en you'd wind up straying pretty far from pronunciation and meaning).</p><p=
></p></blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: =
1ex;"><p>And yes, some kludgy whatever for cmene and fu'ivla (these also su=
ffer, <br>by never being able to reduce the markedness of being written all=
 funny).</p></blockquote><div>This poses a more general thoughts on whether=
 fu'ivla are really needed in Lojban.</div><div>in many cases they can be r=
eadily replace with cmene or lujvo. I just find the similar solution &nbsp;=
in Chinese itself.</div><div>compare</div><div>latcribe =3D cionmau</div><d=
iv>(cionmau is from Shiong Mao which literally means "latcribe")</div><div>=
&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-lef=
t: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><p>~mark<br></p><p=
></p><p></p><p></p></blockquote>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
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om/d/msg/lojban/-/sKcRJg5T8MoJ">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/sK=
cRJg5T8MoJ</a>.<br />=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
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?hl=3Den.<br />



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