Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f61.google.com ([209.85.215.61]:55244) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1S5GXT-00034F-Rq; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 05:04:26 -0800 Received: by lagv3 with SMTP id v3sf6167641lag.16 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 05:04:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=+SyTLelkD7fwm4C8Q6LTmlPQcdVzk6sL5dMCmfLceG0=; b=YKBGrPDthlGDlDL966TgG2+kp/q6IqiDKtYRERn0oFL+YogsnHkFXGxx3cp6/8uQOY nJzT/HcgdIjm86QOlBbr3/tTkDQ5amxT8BbJuBvnlgc02wHI+V0h/yqJiCDflddycH2N 4dNrkZmMGVOLx9RPBm2q25vx7pVjjYtytE5x0= Received: by 10.204.133.197 with SMTP id g5mr123255bkt.10.1331125447687; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 05:04:07 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.45.87 with SMTP id d23ls2258075bkf.2.gmail; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 05:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.205.123.6 with SMTP id gi6mr208684bkc.5.1331125446700; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 05:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.205.123.6 with SMTP id gi6mr208683bkc.5.1331125446674; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 05:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f49.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f49.google.com [209.85.215.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 8si559070bka.1.2012.03.07.05.04.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 07 Mar 2012 05:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.49; Received: by lagy4 with SMTP id y4so9608410lag.36 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 05:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.43.66 with SMTP id u2mr680898lbl.58.1331125446131; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 05:04:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.36.1 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 05:03:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F56BA2C.7010104@kli.org> References: <20394136.112.1331024477793.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbcu2> <4F56BA2C.7010104@kli.org> From: MorphemeAddict Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:03:46 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5Blojban=5D_A_suggestion_for_new_h=E0nz=EC=2Dbase_writi?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ng_system?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4efe34405e423e04baa6cb29 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e0cb4efe34405e423e04baa6cb29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Mark E. Shoulson wrote: > Hanzi for Lojban is an excellent notion (has it already been entertained?= ) > Hanzi are probably better-suited to Lojban than the Latin alphabet is, an= d > possibly better-suited to Lojban than they are to Chinese. A fixed, > *closed* number of roots, each representable by a single figure, none > needing to be related to the others... Sounds good to me. > Finding enough hanzi that are unrelated to any others is not easy. Maybe the bare radicals... But there are only 214 radicals (in one common selection). stevo > > Each gismu should have a single official graph, as close as possible in > meaning. It will never be perfect, but the mapping of sounds to Latin > letters isn't perfect either, to an English-speaker. Rafsi use exactly th= e > same graph, as you propose, except they're linked together to make lujvo. > It's reminiscent of the distinct on/kun readings in Japanese, where they > have different pronunciations if they're in compound or other environment= s. > I don't like your ^ because it separates as much as joins, and since ther= e > won't be spaces between the graphs in general (or will there?) you wind u= p > with lujvo-elements that are more visually separated than adjacent words. > Something like a COMBINING DOUBLE INVERTED BREVE or COMBINING DOUBLE BREV= E > BELOW would be nice, though I'm not sure applying such non-Han diacritics > to Han characters doesn't qualify as an unholy abomination. Something > small, some little separator that joins more than it separates... Maybe > something like =CB=8CMODIFIER LETTER LOW VERTICAL LINE or =CB=88MODIFIER = LETTER > VERTICAL LINE, squeezed between the rafsi-graphs? > > Presumably specific graphs for the cmavo as well. There we lose the > cmavo/brivla distinction that the Latin writing system gives, with the > consonant clusters. (what might be cool is to take the cmavo-graphs from > katana/hiragana, which are visually distinct from the Han graphs, but the= n > you'd wind up straying pretty far from pronunciation and meaning). > > And yes, some kludgy whatever for cmene and fu'ivla (these also suffer, b= y > never being able to reduce the markedness of being written all funny). > > ~mark > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@** > googlegroups.com . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** > group/lojban?hl=3Den . > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --e0cb4efe34405e423e04baa6cb29 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Mark E. = Shoulson <mark@kli.org= > wrote:
Hanzi for Lojban is an excellent notion (has it already been entertained?) = Hanzi are probably better-suited to Lojban than the Latin alphabet is, and = possibly better-suited to Lojban than they are to Chinese. A fixed, *closed= * number of roots, each representable by a single figure, none needing to b= e related to the others... Sounds good to me.

Finding enough hanzi that are unrelated to= any others is not easy. Maybe the bare radicals... But there are only 214 = radicals (in one common selection).=C2=A0

stevo=C2= =A0

Each gismu should have a single official graph, as close as possible in mea= ning. It will never be perfect, but the mapping of sounds to Latin letters = isn't perfect either, to an English-speaker. Rafsi use exactly the same= graph, as you propose, except they're linked together to make lujvo. I= t's reminiscent of the distinct on/kun readings in Japanese, where they= have different pronunciations if they're in compound or other environm= ents. I don't like your ^ because it separates as much as joins, and si= nce there won't be spaces between the graphs in general (or will there?= ) you wind up with lujvo-elements that are more visually separated than adj= acent words. Something like a COMBINING DOUBLE INVERTED BREVE or COMBINING = DOUBLE BREVE BELOW would be nice, though I'm not sure applying such non= -Han diacritics to Han characters doesn't qualify as an unholy abominat= ion. Something small, some little separator that joins more than it separat= es... Maybe something like =CB=8CMODIFIER LETTER LOW VERTICAL LINE or =CB= =88MODIFIER LETTER VERTICAL LINE, squeezed between the rafsi-graphs?

Presumably specific graphs for the cmavo as well. There we lose the cmavo/b= rivla distinction that the Latin writing system gives, with the consonant c= lusters. (what might be cool is to take the cmavo-graphs from katana/hiraga= na, which are visually distinct from the Han graphs, but then you'd win= d up straying pretty far from pronunciation and meaning).

And yes, some kludgy whatever for cmene and fu'ivla (these also suffer,= by never being able to reduce the markedness of being written all funny).<= span class=3D"HOEnZb">

~mark


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