Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]:54009) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1S5nzi-0005l5-MI; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:47:49 -0800 Received: by yenm3 with SMTP id m3sf1082458yen.16 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:47:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lWiNqmfW1DgA4CkkmCFmHz42GtKAs/q8CHps5UcrOTs=; b=SlfX0+/gwkTM8ovYTHdxm5CcSDxmSTKl9VzOG5tmw9a09WSyCZZubkhYzzIDkgcobt r5bZAZZ2eMRqrO97iJuCN0GoOm8uxHSnTDxsBLjEPFUvn63XLmNjcnfWpglgFRxVg7G7 ZUyKWsRxchJEkRptwSZR+i7+VdTRFBplged8U= Received: by 10.52.71.232 with SMTP id y8mr38871vdu.18.1331254052607; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:47:32 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.218.147 with SMTP id hq19ls4342658vcb.4.gmail; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.155.240 with SMTP id vz16mr730123vdb.3.1331254048437; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.155.240 with SMTP id vz16mr730119vdb.3.1331254048416; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f53.google.com (mail-vw0-f53.google.com [209.85.212.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hc9si1870639vdb.2.2012.03.08.16.47.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.53; Received: by vbbfc26 with SMTP id fc26so1093985vbb.26 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.38.102 with SMTP id f6mr366743vdk.70.1331254048112; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:47:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.30.97 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 16:47:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <16921582.1283.1331248132156.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yner4> References: <13652222.419.1331146240191.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynes7> <201203071528.01767.phma@phma.optus.nu> <17229123.4939.1331160187554.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yncc26> <20120308095013.GH24736@nvg.org> <16921582.1283.1331248132156.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yner4> From: Jacob Errington Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 19:47:08 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Biological taxonomy and other 'esoteric' vocabularies like chemical nomenclature To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51d20d8a4c04304bac4bc0f X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --bcaec51d20d8a4c04304bac4bc0f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to agree with Pierre on this. Lojban is meant to be culturally neutral (albeit however that in some places it isn't quite as neutral as it should or could be) which means that any common names that are based on those of another language aren't appropriate. Lojban's "common names" for plants and animals are simply *based on* the Linnean names. I've had this discussion before in #lojban, and the conclusion seemed to be that, yes, although it is strange to see linnean names in common speech at first, it isn't any more far-fetched for a ten-year-old to say "chamomille" than it is to say {xrulnrekutita}. In fact, having the "common name" be, I repeat, *based on* the Linnean name would probably prove to be advantageous for a lojbanist biologist, as while studying, that lojbanist wouldn't have to double his or her vocabulary, learning the Linnean names and then mapping them to the common names. As for la'o, I didn't know/forgot that it was based on latmo (makes sense though, [latmo]'s only rafsi is -la'o-). Regardless, one must choose the delimiter for the non-lojban quote. Simply choose a meaningful delimiter. [i ti me la'o line'an. rosa kordesii line'an], or if you're a cmevla-hater like me, it's possible to use some brivla as the delimiter, such as [la'ocme] or [la'o] again or simply [latmo] or even [ly], if from context it's obvious that it's a Latin/Linnean name. mu'o mi'e la tsani On 8 March 2012 18:08, RexScientiarum wrote: > Right, I was thing about that and after I made the post and came to the > same conclusion, that the translations were in a general, non linnaean > sense. > > > On Thursday, March 8, 2012 3:50:13 AM UTC-6, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: >> >> On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 02:43:07PM -0800, RexScientiarum wrote: >> > >> > I HAD assumed that taxonomy, at least, would be treated in one of thos= e >> two >> > ways (because, as you said, it is always treated as a foreign language= , >> > hence why it is italicized in print or *supposed *to be underlined whe= n >> > handwritten) but it looks as if other community members have already >> begun >> > to lojbanize taxonomic names so I thought MAYBE there is some feeling >> that >> > there is a need to lojbanize biological classification for whatever >> reason >> > (which is why I ask, and I thought maybe there was some feeling that >> the >> > current Linnaean method based primarily on Latin and some Greek and >> written >> > in the Roman alphabet wasn't a universal, culturally/scientifically >> > unbiased method. Idk, just trying to understand/rationalize why someon= e >> > thought there had to be a lojban name for eubacteria {fadjurme} and th= e >> > like). >> >> I think the idea is that a language needs ordinary terms for species (ie= . >> words like =93bullfinch=94, not words like =93Pyrrhula pyrrhula=94). In = the cases >> were a gismu is not adequate, a new word needs to be created, and the wo= rd >> needs to come from somewhere. Often, the scientific name is an easily >> available source to make a new word from. That doesn't mean that the new >> word is a _translation_ or _corresponds with_ or _is used the same way a= s_ >> the Linnean binomial, just that it's based on that term, rather than a w= ord >> from some particular language. >> >> -- >> Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ >> P=E5 1300-tallet kom tersen. F=F8r og etter det var det meste bare rot, = men >> s=E5 kom Sch=F6nberg og ordnet opp. Puh. Endelig litt system. S=E5 klart= e Arne >> Nordheim =E5 rote det til igjen. -- Under Dusken 08/20= 01 >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/HR53SHEeHjEJ. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --bcaec51d20d8a4c04304bac4bc0f Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to agree with Pierre on this. Lojban is meant to be culturally neutr= al (albeit however that in some places it isn't quite as neutral as it = should or could be) which means that any common names that are based on tho= se of another language aren't appropriate. Lojban's "common na= mes" for plants and animals are simply based on=A0the Linnean n= ames.=A0
I've had this discussion before in #lojban, and the conclusion seemed t= o be that, yes, although it is strange to see linnean names in common speec= h at first, it isn't any more far-fetched for a ten-year-old to say &qu= ot;chamomille" than it is to say {xrulnrekutita}. In fact, having the = "common name" be, I repeat, based on=A0the Linnean name wo= uld probably prove to be advantageous for a lojbanist biologist, as while s= tudying, that lojbanist wouldn't have to double his or her vocabulary, = learning the Linnean names and then mapping them to the common names.

As for la'o, I didn't know/forgot that it was b= ased on latmo (makes sense though, [latmo]'s only rafsi is -la'o-).= Regardless, one must choose the delimiter for the non-lojban quote. Simply= choose a meaningful delimiter. [i ti me la'o line'an. rosa kordesi= i line'an], or if you're a cmevla-hater like me, it's possible = to use some brivla as the delimiter, such as [la'ocme] or [la'o] ag= ain or simply [latmo] or even [ly], if from context it's obvious that i= t's a Latin/Linnean name.

mu'o mi'e la tsani

On 8 March 2012 18:08, RexScientiarum <amt2839@gmail.com> wrote:
Right, I was thing about that and after I made the post and came to the sam= e conclusion, that the translations were in a general, non linnaean sense.<= div class=3D"im">

On Thursday, March 8, 2012 3:50:13 AM UTC-6, Arnt = Richard Johansen wrote:
On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 02:43:07PM -0800, RexScientiarum wrote:
> > I HAD assumed that taxonomy, at least, would be treated in one of tho= se two
> ways (because, as you said, it is always treated as a forei= gn language,
> hence why it is italicized in print or *supposed *to be underlined whe= n
> handwritten) but it looks as if other community members have alr= eady begun
> to lojbanize taxonomic names so I thought MAYBE there i= s some feeling that
> there is a need to lojbanize biological classification for whatever re= ason
> (which is why I ask, and I thought maybe there was some feeli= ng that the
> current Linnaean method based primarily on Latin and s= ome Greek and written
> in the Roman alphabet wasn't a universal, culturally/scientificall= y
> unbiased method. Idk, just trying to understand/rationalize why = someone
> thought there had to be a lojban name for eubacteria {fadj= urme} and the
> like).

I think the idea is that a language needs ordinary terms for = species (ie. words like =93bullfinch=94, not words like =93Pyrrhula pyrrhul= a=94). In the cases were a gismu is not adequate, a new word needs to be cr= eated, and the word needs to come from somewhere. Often, the scientific nam= e is an easily available source to make a new word from. That doesn't m= ean that the new word is a _translation_ or _corresponds with_ or _is used = the same way as_ the Linnean binomial, just that it's based on that ter= m, rather than a word from some particular language.

--
Arnt Richard Johansen =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0http:= //arj.nvg.org/
P=E5 1300-tallet kom tersen. F=F8r og etter det var d= et meste bare rot, men
s=E5 kom Sch=F6nberg og ordnet opp. Puh. Endelig = litt system. S=E5 klarte Arne
Nordheim =E5 rote det til igjen. =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -- Und= er Dusken 08/2001

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/HR53SHEeHjEJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--bcaec51d20d8a4c04304bac4bc0f--