stevo

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 9:30 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:

=A0Of course, it's sheer nonsense to cl= aim that brivla can't have more
than one definition. =A0See "facki" for example. =A0What is reall= y meant
is that there can't be a substantially different definition. =A0Anyway,=
there's a simple solution to the dilemma at hand. =A0Define "djart= ako"
to be "x1 is filled and folded tortilla/octopus sashimi made with
additional ingredients/preparation method x2 and associated with
culture x3" =A0 There is nothing that says that fu'ivla can only h= ave
one place, nor that it has to divide the world the way one natlang or
another does (for example, a tirxu can be a whole range of different
species).

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> On Friday, March 02, 2012 23:35:53 guskant wrote:
>> ki'e la'oi Pierre
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
>> > On Sunday, February 26, 2012 20:41:18 guskant wrote:
>> >> coi
>> >>
>> >> The algorithm of making a non-Lojban word into a valid St= age 3 fu'ivla
>> >> may produce homonyms.
>> >> For example, a Mexican may produce "djartako" f= rom taco, while a
>> >> Japanese may produce "djartako" from octopus di= sh.
>> >> Is there algorithm to select one of them?
>> >
>> > "djartako" is a type-4, you mean "cidjrtako&qu= ot;,
>>
>> I simply used the term "Stage 3" used in the CLL 4.7: >> "The rafsi categorizes or limits the meaning of the fu'iv= la [...].
>> Such a Stage 3 borrowing is the most common kind of fu'ivla.&q= uot;
>> "Stage 4 fu'ivla do not have any rafsi classifier, and ar= e used where
>> a fu'ivla has become so common or so important that it must be= made as
>> short as possible."
>> I don't know another classification method.
>
> We decided (I'm not sure when; it may have been before I became a = Lojbanist)
> that a Stage 3 fu'ivla has to use a rafsi ending in a consonant. A= lso, if you
> make a stage-4 fu'ivla but it has the form of a stage-3, you have = to change
> it. I've run into this once: "turndun", an Australian Ab= original word for a
> bullroarer, turned into "turndunu", but that's a type-3 = word for some kind of
> structure, so I changed it to "turdunu".
>
>> On the other hand, it seems that homonyms from different languages=
>> cannot be managed with reasonable rules. However, "fu'ivl= a (like other
>> brivla) are not permitted to have more than one definition. (CLL 4= .7)"
>>
>> According to CLL 4.7, "Stage 3 fu'ivla can be made easily= on the fly,
>> as lujvo can, because the procedure for forming them always guaran= tees
>> a word that cannot violate any of the rules." This statement = is not
>> true for "djartako".
>>
>> "Stage 4 fu'ivla require running tests that are not simpl= e to
>> characterize or perform, and should be made only after deliberatio= n
>> and by someone knowledgeable about all the considerations that app= ly.
>> (CLL 4.7)" Yes, and because of "djartako", running = tests must be
>> applied also to Stage 3 fu'ivla.
>
> I think you've found a bug in the Book, and it should be fixed in = the next
> edition. I'm not sure how to fix it, though. The bug I found in th= e fu'irvlazba
> rules (ler(fu) + djamo (a Korean word for a letter that's a compon= ent of a
> syllable) =3D lerndjamo by the rule as it then stood) was easy to fix = (in this
> case the interfix must be -l-, thus lerldjamo).
>
>> > There
>> > isn't, and can't be, an algorithm to decide this. The= re can be a protocol
>> > (the multiparty equivalent of an algorithm).
>>
>> Which protocol can be there?
>
> I don't know, but it could involve a Japanese Lojbanist talking wi= th a Mexican
> Lojbanist.
>
> Pierre
> --
> li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
> li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci
>
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