Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]:35436) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1S6MxF-0003Zv-FZ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 06:07:34 -0800 Received: by yhkk25 with SMTP id k25sf2942837yhk.16 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 06:07:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=dfXQ+uIFft8Y0CyUC0vTsJ7LuNT/N/RLOQ7yHR9B/g8=; b=Ej3CtHcuZjkq6q+/+R7M8T8MZ2cJujT7evYCd1UK3DAhfH8kWPO4g+KRukRfJwciS4 aQPPkalqYNzrP7uyK2/1AVNUmgZGM2Mvt0AIhaKz2jDdxkg/TbEWHhF5Kkilc6FkSlNY 786757B6MmRn7dvr8QWXkU3BEPsw32aRtwYjI= Received: by 10.52.22.3 with SMTP id z3mr812110vde.2.1331387796703; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 05:56:36 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.175.104 with SMTP id bz8ls5752092vdc.1.gmail; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 05:56:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.38.231 with SMTP id j7mr819121vdk.5.1331387795398; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 05:56:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 05:56:34 -0800 (PST) From: gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-ID: <449376.147.1331387794871.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yner4> In-Reply-To: References: <3325018.1470.1331374874547.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbctz2> <27828065.2262.1331380002594.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynjd19> Subject: Re: [lojban] Nasal assimilation MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_146_18916445.1331387794869" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_146_18916445.1331387794869 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just meant whether it's important to pronounce *m *and *n *carefully in= =20 speech without creating ambiguities On Saturday, March 10, 2012 4:07:22 PM UTC+4, cntrational wrote: > > Actually changing the forms of the gismu to adjust for this seems like > something that will never happen. > > On 10 March 2012 17:16, gleki wrote: > > If we replace np /nb with mp / mb will there be any clashes in existing > > gismu (of course taking into account that two gismu can't differ in the= =20 > last > > vowel etc.) ? > > > > > > On Saturday, March 10, 2012 3:36:18 PM UTC+4, cntrational wrote: > >> > >> I'd personally say "imput" in rapid speech, and "gumtree" and > >> "camcorder" are more lenient about phonotactics because they're > >> compound words. But, yeah, English isn't too strict about it in slower > >> speech, though I'd argue that assimilation happens a lot in rapid > >> speech. Ask most English speakers to say "He got ten points." rapidly, > >> they'll probably say "tem points". > >> > >> 2012/3/10 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > >> > On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 7:21 AM, cntrational > >> > wrote: > >> >> In most languages, when nasals come before stops, they generally > >> >> assimilate > >> >> to the stop. So, we don't say "inpossble", we say "impossble" -- /n= p/ > >> >> is a > >> >> cluster that's rare in most languages; it's usually changed to /mp/= . > >> >> Similarly for /mt/ =E2=86=92 /nt/ and /mk/ =E2=86=92 /=C5=8Bk/. Whi= ch makes it really=20 > weird > >> >> that > >> >> Lojban *does* allow clusters like /np/. What's up with that? Seems= =20 > like > >> >> a > >> >> pretty glaring omission in the Lojban phonotactic rules, especially > >> >> considering how common nasal assimilation is in the world. > >> > > >> > In English such assimilations don't really happen (cf. "input", > >> > "gumtree", "camcorder"). "Impossible" came into English with the > >> > assimilation already there. The designers of Lojban were English > >> > speakers, not linguists, so Lojban has a strong bias towards English > >> > phonotactics, not towards what's common in the world. > >> > > >> > mu'o mi'e xorxes > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups "lojban" group. > >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/fmaLB9VGBzYJ. > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/7QiFqFDhLMIJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_146_18916445.1331387794869 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just meant whether it's important to pronounce m  and n carefully in speech without creating ambiguities

On Saturday, Marc= h 10, 2012 4:07:22 PM UTC+4, cntrational wrote:
Actually changing the forms of the gismu to adjust for thi= s seems like
something that will never happen.

On 10 March 2012 17:16,= gleki <= gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
> If we replace np /nb with= mp / mb will there be any clashes in existing
> gismu (of course tak= ing into account that two gismu can't differ in the last
> vowel etc.= ) ?
>
>
> On Saturday, March 10, 2012 3:36:18 PM UTC+4, c= ntrational wrote:
>>
>> I'd personally say "imput" in rap= id speech, and "gumtree" and
>> "camcorder" are more lenient about= phonotactics because they're
>> compound words. But, yeah, Englis= h isn't too strict about it in slower
>> speech, though I'd argue = that assimilation happens a lot in rapid
>> speech. Ask most Engli= sh speakers to say "He got ten points." rapidly,
>> they'll probab= ly say "tem points".
>>
>> 2012/3/10 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas = <jjllambias@gm= ail.com>:
>> > On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 7:21 AM, cntratio= nal <cntratio= nal@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >> In most = languages, when nasals come before stops, they generally
>> >&g= t; assimilate
>> >> to the stop. So, we don't say "inpossble= ", we say "impossble" -- /np/
>> >> is a
>> >>= ; cluster that's rare in most languages; it's usually changed to /mp/.
&= gt;> >> Similarly for /mt/ =E2=86=92 /nt/ and /mk/ =E2=86=92 /=C5= =8Bk/. Which makes it really weird
>> >> that
>> &g= t;> Lojban *does* allow clusters like /np/. What's up with that? Seems l= ike
>> >> a
>> >> pretty glaring omission in = the Lojban phonotactic rules, especially
>> >> considering h= ow common nasal assimilation is in the world.
>> >
>> = > In English such assimilations don't really happen (cf. "input",
>= ;> > "gumtree", "camcorder"). "Impossible" came into English with the=
>> > assimilation already there. The designers of Lojban were = English
>> > speakers, not linguists, so Lojban has a strong bi= as towards English
>> > phonotactics, not towards what's common= in the world.
>> >
>> > mu'o mi'e xorxes
>&g= t; >
>> > --
>> > You received this message beca= use you are subscribed to the Google
>> > Groups "lojban" group= .
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
&= gt;> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >= lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more op= tions, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/= group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >
>
> --
> You r= eceived this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>= ; "lojban" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> = https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/fmaLB9VGBzYJ.>
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> T= o unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
&g= t; http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/7Q= iFqFDhLMIJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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