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[98.138.229.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id dm4si4938120igb.2.2012.03.12.09.01.07; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.229.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.229.179; Received: from [98.138.226.176] by nm40.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Mar 2012 16:01:07 -0000 Received: from [68.142.200.226] by tm11.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Mar 2012 16:01:07 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.121] by t7.bullet.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Mar 2012 16:01:07 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1026.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Mar 2012 16:01:07 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 171209.40190.bm@omp1026.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 29432 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Mar 2012 16:01:07 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: v42BXE0VM1lSBCyGEiNvuWhnn7mjSPephGBpREFK6RRT4BD kWMQOYIJwmmhfxcOLet6OoFn0x3C.RrXohXbpZcW1f4MHiwojlm0dICe6pvJ 51uBunP4lGvf3OVIZHio9PoJ0_Carz7w_uYVG9YWWgeISRc_X8l0gkn_NG0e YDEuJ0XA7Br91KFp9_Wy8YPjCTNRMdDmWpPctvlX2LPN77LsJ2QwrHZX199R l.PMb93FAxbAx8324DndchhlcC2MY7.FZES_xZ8ZFjcLWEvdsP1HUv9a9afB x2c8XJ92R520gfXbFpgvaPoEKDxfANvGOR7H_0vkQBfmzz283jUahlqJ.RAo 5QxQ3CZUmppRLQKBtbISyIZxtKkGyl7mOJ71LfZOkg.jOjCmyTRquo6LT8CE JAaKHnr.NmrG.6MNw.VugnEtCeRFmoMA5RhUGXTqZjWNfNS1WUc27YeVdtoB vmtkWyt.k8XbJv3ywRkmsAH9VdAaed3WTXMhIYfK5fxm4ufG_bWx5KCIefO. Z2.P35deD3pG5CZrV6ze1qGAEGkP3pSvhlB2yiJYuYgvY1vd72LjPrWTHanE eMrSih4zorLd5p_gJ4c8- Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:01:06 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.116.338427 References: Message-ID: <1331568066.28657.YahooMailNeo@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:01:06 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] footnotes, etc? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.229.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="931067830-1081966612-1331568066=:28657" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --931067830-1081966612-1331568066=:28657 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Medium and message again.=A0 A "choose your adventure" book is one text, wi= th options about how much and which parts to read.=A0 As a text, it has the= same reading (in however loosely you want to take that), thoug a given per= formance of that text may be very different from another performance.=A0 Th= ough I dread to bring this up, we seem to be having type-token confusions h= ere as well as script/performance ones.=A0 Each reading of a given text (th= e same piece of paper, to be on the safe side) is isomorphic to that text (= assuming the reading is done right) and so to any other correct reading of = it.=A0 The instruments of this isomorphism are the idiosyncrasies of the sp= eaker's voice on this occasion (well, at a deeper level,=A0 there may be ph= onemic problems as well).=A0 Thus there isn't a completely describable isom= orphism between a text and the class of tis performances; the best we can h= ope for is that there is one for each performance and that all can be summed up in some general terms=A0 ([c] is pronounced like English [sh], a= nd so on). ________________________________ From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 10:24 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] footnotes, etc? =20 2012/3/12 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > 2012/3/12 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : >> doi xorxes, >> >> Can't you define an equivalence relation among valid written texts, >> another one among valid speech streams, and then pair-up the >> equivalence classes? >> >> Wouldn't that still be an isomorphism? >> >> I understand that the concept is more subtle, but the name is still vali= d. > > OK, as long as it's understood that way, fine. But then what does that > have to do with the footnotes issue? I'm just saying it is not the > case that to each speech stream corresponds one spelling and to each > spelling corresponds one speech stream. Also, if you want the isomorphism to hold at the level of classes of texts, then "choose your own adventure" books cannot be translated into Lojban, since the whole point of them is that one text can be read in more than one non-equivalent way. So I still say we drop the "isomorphism" terminology. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --931067830-1081966612-1331568066=:28657 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Medium and= message again.  A "choose your adventure" book is one text, with opti= ons about how much and which parts to read.  As a text, it has the sam= e reading (in however loosely you want to take that), thoug a given perform= ance of that text may be very different from another performance.  Tho= ugh I dread to bring this up, we seem to be having type-token confusions he= re as well as script/performance ones.  Each reading of a given text (= the same piece of paper, to be on the safe side) is isomorphic to that text= (assuming the reading is done right) and so to any other correct reading o= f it.  The instruments of this isomorphism are the idiosyncrasies of t= he speaker's voice on this occasion (well, at a deeper level,  there m= ay be phonemic problems as well).  Thus there isn't a completely describable isomorphism between a text and the class of tis performances; = the best we can hope for is that there is one for each performance and that= all can be summed up in some general terms  ([c] is pronounced like E= nglish [sh], and so on).


= From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <= jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
S= ent: Monday, March 12, 2012 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] footnotes, etc?
=

2012/3/12 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> 2= 012/3/12 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>:
>> doi xorxes,
>>
>> Can't you define an = equivalence relation among valid written texts,
>> another one amo= ng valid speech streams, and then pair-up the
>> equivalence class= es?
>>
>> Wouldn't that still be an isomorphism?
>&= gt;
>> I understand that the concept is more subtle, but the name = is still valid.
>
> OK, as long as it's understood that way, fi= ne. But then what does that
> have to do with the footnotes issue? I'= m just saying it is not the
> case that to each speech stream corresp= onds one spelling and to each
> spelling corresponds one speech stream.

Also, if you want the isomorphism to hold at the level of c= lasses of
texts, then "choose your own adventure" books cannot be transl= ated
into Lojban, since the whole point of them is that one text can be<= br>read in more than one non-equivalent way. So I still say we drop the
= "isomorphism" terminology.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
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=

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